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Looking for mini deck with NetMD, newest DSP

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NFG

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Good morning!

Question: Are there any late model mini-deck recorders with NetMD (or other PC-linked titling capability) that'll record from optical using a type R or S DSP?

 

Long version:

I have a 7700-MDX deck in the car and I am currently recording discs for it via optical output on the PC, using SonicStage to sort and label tracks, using my NH900 portable recorder.  The NH900 is a little fiddly, with buttons that require dedication to use, a screen that's hard to read in all lighting conditions, and a frustrating menu system with functions split between device and remote.  Also I'm worried about wear and tear.

So I was hoping for a mini deck that'd sit on a shelf and give me the same or similar functionality.  But I'm not having much luck finding a late model mini deck with these features.  Does one exist, or will I have to find a standard sized deck?  And even then, I'm not clear on which models, if any, might meet my needs.

Your suggestions are appreciated.  

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On 2016. október 27. at 8:14 AM, NFG said:

Looks like the S500 might be the one to check all my boxes.  =D

A non-japanese S500 is rare like hen's teeth, I am afraid.

The S50 can be a good alternative, with PC-Link and Type-R.

Or in full size: 470, 770, 480, 780, 980QS.

Or in very expensive: JA333ES ;-)

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I am confused. I dont understand why you are doing what  you are doing? sorry but seems  silly.  " recording discs for it via optical output on the PC ".  Why arent  you importing the cds into SonicStage on your pc then  use Sonic Stage to upload to  minidiscs?  As its only for the car LP2 should be ok? So no need for a mdlp deck? The NH900 is mdlp? if not then get a cheap  nh600 portable that is - thats  what I use.

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1 hour ago, freddyjollo said:

I am confused. I dont understand why you are doing what  you are doing? sorry but seems  silly.  " recording discs for it via optical output on the PC ".  Why arent  you importing the cds into SonicStage on your pc then  use Sonic Stage to upload to  minidiscs?  As its only for the car LP2 should be ok? So no need for a mdlp deck? The NH900 is mdlp? if not then get a cheap  nh600 portable that is - thats  what I use.

Well if I wanted average quality I could just stick wtih the old player.  The Sony deck sounds amazing, even compared to a similarly spec'd and priced Pioneer from the same era. And I've got some good speakers, and despite my old age I can still hear and appreciate the high end.  I'm really very aware of quantization in the high end, which is why I'm using MDs instead of, say, 320kbps MP3s.  The difference between LP2 and SP might not be noticeable, but the difference between music recorded via optical input and music encoded by SonicStage and transferred over is -massive-.  Whatever SS is doing doesn't work nearly as well as the NH900.  Now whether that's because of the DSP, or flaws in my testing (which was done a while ago and I may have done something silly and forgotten) I don't know.

But I find it relaxing to create a disc the old fashioned way.  Creating a good playlist and recording one track at a time is a soothing thing.  

tl;dr - it works and I like it.  =)

8 hours ago, NGY said:

The S50 can be a good alternative, with PC-Link and Type-R.

Or in very expensive: JA333ES ;-)

Holy crap, you're not kidding about the JA333ES.  O_o

The S50 requires the weird PC-Link thing, is that a hassle compared to the relatively easy NetMD with Sonic Stage?

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The 333ES is so good, that its LP2 sounds good even without Type S. I got one when they were more reasonably priced, but it's now deceased and departed. The JE780 is well-spoken-of and while not exactly common, does turn up here and there for much less than the 333ES. I'm not sure the S500 was ever common, even in Japan. Don't know where you're looking, but besides eBay, you can always check out Buyee (http://buyee.jp/?lang=en).

Lots of folks record optically from their PCs! (I sometimes do so from an iMac...my PC has coax out...that works, too.)

I have a JA22ES, which seems to have a GUI that enables one to do titling and such from a PC, although I do not use that functionality.

Anyway, good luck, be nice to know what you wind up with.

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2 hours ago, bluecrab said:

I'm not sure the S500 was ever common, even in Japan. Don't know where you're looking, but besides eBay, you can always check out Buyee (http://buyee.jp/?lang=en).

I have a JA22ES, which seems to have a GUI that enables one to do titling and such from a PC, although I do not use that functionality.

I used to live in Japan and I visit regularly.  I'll probably scour yahoo or the local shops and keep my fingers crossed for a good deal.  =)

The 22ES needs the PC Link which, I dunno, maybe be a problem on a modern OS?  Also it's a full-size deck.  Great featureset, but it won't fit on my shelves.  =/

 

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What is a mini-deck? I've never heard the expression, so you had better define your terms.

My favourite, small, non-portable is the MDS-PC3 which does everything a JE640 does but adds M-Crew functionality (you will need a PCLK-MN10 and XP most likely, since 64-bit Windows doesn't work). In my view you don't want the NetMD functionality in a deck (as opposed to portable) sized package, because it's a bit slow for transfers. The HiMD units are the best way to do remote titling (MCrew can do that, too) and USB transfer.

Another option would be one of the all in one units that has a direct USB connection. The CMT-M333NT (and -373NT) is good. This is the only way to have M-Crew and Sonic Stage on a single unit.

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The S50 is nearly identical to the PC3 (and the 640) in terms of features, in "mini" (or some people say "midi") form factor. The optical output is missing unfortunately (no coax SPDIF either), and no pitch control, if I recall it properly. But it has SF-Edit and Fader, that can be very handy when making your own compilations.

22 hours ago, NFG said:

The S50 requires the weird PC-Link thing, is that a hassle compared to the relatively easy NetMD with Sonic Stage?

I am not using SonicStage, therefore cannot compare the two. But my experience with M-Crew is positive - simple stuff for simple tasks, and you can even title discs and tracks during actual recording. Important though, as Stephen pointed out above, that XP is the last OS it can run on properly (my "factotum" PC still runs XP, and will do so until it dies, I think).

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7 hours ago, sfbp said:

What is a mini-deck? I've never heard the expression, so you had better define your terms.

My favourite, small, non-portable is the MDS-PC3 which does everything a JE640 does but adds M-Crew functionality (you will need a PCLK-MN10 and XP most likely, since 64-bit Windows doesn't work). In my view you don't want the NetMD functionality in a deck (as opposed to portable) sized package, because it's a bit slow for transfers. The HiMD units are the best way to do remote titling (MCrew can do that, too) and USB transfer.

Another option would be one of the all in one units that has a direct USB connection. The CMT-M333NT (and -373NT) is good. This is the only way to have M-Crew and Sonic Stage on a single unit.

Well, it's like a deck, but smaller.  You know, mini.  I don't know how else you'd describe that small form factor Japan is so fond of.  I figured you'd get what I meant based on the mention of things like the S500 and S50.

As discussed, I'm not happy with the quality when using NetMD to do transfers.  The encoding done on a PC is not as good as when done on the device, at least as far as my NH900 is concerned.  I only want to use it for easy titling and occasional track rearranging.  As for WinXP, that's a deal breaker for sure.  I don't want to devote a whole machine to this purpose.

1 hour ago, NGY said:

The S50 is nearly identical to the PC3 (and the 640) in terms of features, in "mini" (or some people say "midi") form factor. The optical output is missing unfortunately (no coax SPDIF either), and no pitch control, if I recall it properly. But it has SF-Edit and Fader, that can be very handy when making your own compilations.

I am not using SonicStage, therefore cannot compare the two. But my experience with M-Crew is positive - simple stuff for simple tasks, and you can even title discs and tracks during actual recording. Important though, as Stephen pointed out above, that XP is the last OS it can run on properly (my "factotum" PC still runs XP, and will do so until it dies, I think).

Optical out isn't a deal breaker.  I don't have a MD player in the living room with the good stereo (and don't listen to music there anyway).  I've got good quality headphones and a nice car stereo, which is where all the listening will occur.  Optical out is -nice- to have but it won't be missed if the available choices don't have it.  Same for things like pitch control, etc.  

But then, I wonder how effective and compatible those large keyboard-style remotes are?  That might suffice, and maybe give me more deck options?  

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" As discussed, I'm not happy with the quality when using NetMD to do transfers.  The encoding done on a PC is not as good as when done on the device, at least as far as my NH900 is concerned.  I only want to use it for easy titling and occasional track rearranging.  As for WinXP, that's a deal breaker for sure.  I don't want to devote a whole machine to this purpose. "

 

well the soln is to run a dual boot, which is what I do as I have some old programs and devices that I have found it hard to get to work under  8.1/10 64 bit.  You dont even to set up a dual boot from within windows. My mother board for instance allows me to choose with the F8 function key which drive to boot from. this is how to prefer to do it. So I have 2 separate  drives one for each  of XP and 8.1/10

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18 hours ago, NFG said:

As discussed, I'm not happy with the quality when using NetMD to do transfers.  The encoding done on a PC is not as good as when done on the device, at least as far as my NH900 is concerned.  I only want to use it for easy titling and occasional track rearranging.  As for WinXP, that's a deal breaker for sure.  I don't want to devote a whole machine to this purpose.

 

You're looking at an artifact. This artifact effectively killed ATRAC in favour of MP3. What you do NOT want to do is to use the PC to reduce straight from 1411 PCM down to LP2. This provides stupid results (I didn't say you were stupid, just that the output is, as you have determined, crappy).

If you pre-encode (and store) all your CD's as Atrac Advanced Lossless (AAL), and in your case I recommend making the Lossy part to be 132kbps ATRAC3 MDLP, you will find that transfers to NetMD work perfectly.

Don't ask me why - I can see it in a general way but I don't have enough background in DSP to be able to explain it. Neither, apparently, did the Dutch testing lab that rubbished ATRAC in the battle of the codecs getting on for about 15 years ago. For sure, part of it is about the fact that so-called 16-bit CD data has more like 20 bits encoded in, and that ripping the data off a CD is NOT a matter of "just copying the data" (I detest that word "just"). You will get a much better image on disk if you do NOT store the data you ripped from a CD as 16-bit PCM.

You can use XP virtual machine to operate a PC-Link just fine. There are a few restrictions.

PS, if you want to verify what I am saying, try using Sound Forge to do the conversion, and listen to the results on the PC without involving MD hardware at all. But you may need to take special care with the ripping.

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10 hours ago, freddyjollo said:

well the soln is to run a dual boot, [...] So I have 2 separate  drives one for each  of XP and 8.1/10

Worth considering I suppose.  Not sure if that's the ideal solution for my circumstances.  Thanks for the suggestion.

5 hours ago, sfbp said:

You're looking at an artifact. This artifact effectively killed ATRAC in favour of MP3. What you do NOT want to do is to use the PC to reduce straight from 1411 PCM down to LP2. This provides stupid results (I didn't say you were stupid, just that the output is, as you have determined, crappy).

If you pre-encode (and store) all your CD's as Atrac Advanced Lossless (AAL), and in your case I recommend making the Lossy part to be 132kbps ATRAC3 MDLP, you will find that transfers to NetMD work perfectly.

Don't ask me why - I can see it in a general way but I don't have enough background in DSP to be able to explain it. Neither, apparently, did the Dutch testing lab that rubbished ATRAC in the battle of the codecs getting on for about 15 years ago. For sure, part of it is about the fact that so-called 16-bit CD data has more like 20 bits encoded in, and that ripping the data off a CD is NOT a matter of "just copying the data" (I detest that word "just"). You will get a much better image on disk if you do NOT store the data you ripped from a CD as 16-bit PCM.

You can use XP virtual machine to operate a PC-Link just fine. There are a few restrictions.

PS, if you want to verify what I am saying, try using Sound Forge to do the conversion, and listen to the results on the PC without involving MD hardware at all. But you may need to take special care with the ripping.

I didn't know I could encode to ATRAC and have it transfer to the disc, I read that the players wouldn't recognize the file if it was done that way.  I'm only recording to SP in any case, since LP2 doesn't sound good enough.  Does this affect your suggestion?

I love ATRAC, it's the only lossy codec that sounds right to me.  ATRAC is, IMO, Sony at the peak of their game.  It's a bloody shame their incompetence held the format back from greater popularity.  =/

I'd like to know more about your idea that CD data includes more than 16 bits of PCM data.  I was always under the impression that additional data was used for things like error correction, not audio - so a 16-bit PCM file should be the correct, actual audio data, with the extra maintenance bits used and discarded since they're no longer needed.  Are you suggesting this isn't the case?

re: XP as a VM - I was wondering if this would be a possible solution.  Sort of a giant hassle to require an extra OS to write track titles, but certainly better than rebooting just to record some tracks.  =)

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Note in particular the quote:

In other words, Sony ***knew*** this about the original (SP) Atrac, and took steps to quietly ditch it in favour of a more reliable, modified scheme (in A3 and A3+). The problem they were left with was (is) compatibility.

So SP has a special flavour but it's not necessarily the most accurate; it's what people got used to hearing. Makes perfect sense (to me) since for most, what came before SP was analogue. HiSP with a better encoding scheme and almost as many bits is probably better (well, more accurate).

As far as 16-bitness goes, you have some reading to catch up on.

I'm not going to rehash it all here - but a word of advice, look using search engines, not the search facility in this forum.

Cheers

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9 hours ago, sfbp said:

In other words, Sony ***knew*** this about the original (SP) Atrac, and took steps to quietly ditch it in favour of a more reliable, modified scheme (in A3 and A3+). The problem they were left with was (is) compatibility.

So SP has a special flavour but it's not necessarily the most accurate; it's what people got used to hearing. Makes perfect sense (to me) since for most, what came before SP was analogue. HiSP with a better encoding scheme and almost as many bits is probably better (well, more accurate).

As far as 16-bitness goes, you have some reading to catch up on.

I'm not going to rehash it all here - but a word of advice, look using search engines, not the search facility in this forum.

Yeah I've read that page before.  I haven't done much testing with it because, though they're rated for 5-35kHz, I can't be sure my headphones aren't significantly dropping the volume of > 16kHz.  

As for 16-bitness, if you've got some links I'd love to see them, but my own searching has turned up nothing that seems to bolster your non-specific assertions about <i>something about more than 16 bits.</i>

We've certainly drifted a long way from the original question.  I'm not really sure if the current conversation is still relevant, unless you're suggesting I don't need the newer codecs if I massage my files during recording?  (We should be clear that re-ripping all my music to ATRAC isn't an option).

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Please forgive me, I am perhaps uneducated in many things, but I am developing the distinct impression you're being intentionally almost helpful.

I don't know about 16 bits, but you won't tell me where to learn more.  You haven't got a deck suggestion, but you're quite sure re-ripping all my CDs will solve a problem I don't seem to have.  When I tell you I don't know what you mean, you say only that the topic title is an oxymoron.  

I'm new here, I don't expect to be coddled or have my hand held.  If my question is ridiculous, just tell me why and I'll re-evaluate my needs.  I don't want to start a fight, but please, either help or don't.  

As a recap, I want to record optically and title easily, with a mini (ie: 30cm-wide) deck.  I'd prefer a type-R DSP, but if that's not a requirement that'll improve my results, maybe I'll be fine without it.  I'd prefer answers that weren't unnecessarily obscure - I'm not averse to looking stuff up if I have some reasonably specific clues.

 

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Sorry but I don't always have time to type answers which have already been canvassed to defend a point of view with which you apparently disagree. I do have a life too.

My strongest recommendation is the MDS-PC3 which fits all those criteria. That is by any definition a deck, and I already made that suggestion.

I asked only that you google it. I will do so now... uh well, I came straight to a topic where I gave the answers you are asking now.

"ripping atrac 16 bits"

You might try that combination. I hope you don't consider that "coddling".

I don't want a war either, but I know who will win it.

To return to my last point - "NetMD with newest DSP" absolutely rules out using SP recording via optical.

 

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Thanks for clarifying a few of those things.  


It's hard to figure out your responses because they're not specifically applicable..  You recommended the PC3, yes, but then said that you did so because NetMD was 'slow for transfers' which isn't what I'm doing.  I have no idea if this negates your suggestion or not, as both this and your suggestion that I re-rip my CDs to facilitate additional transfers solve problems I'm not trying to solve.  You talked about creating LP2 discs, which is also not a problem I'm trying to solve.

It does seem like you've either mis-read my question, confused it with something you've heard asked a hundred times before, or decided to try and answer my question with a solution to a problem I don't know I have.

To your last point: it seems that the convoluted path leads to the short answer: Type R DSP is fine for recording if I cut off everything above ~16kHz, but otherwise makes a mess of things in service of the audiophiles measuring frequency response and not perceptual quality, is that about right?

 

 

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Sort of. But the point is this: anything you already ripped, DEPENDING ON THE RIPPER, is worse than useless for getting good compressed formats. Sony has some settings but they are mostly hidden from you. When you rip to AAL, you get some choices about "ripping speed" vs "ripping quality" IIRC. When you rip to "plain" 16 bits, you don't. It's about dithering a 20-bit source down to 16 bits.

Sorry for the digression about Sound Forge - it will not get you any help with 292kbps ATRAC. That format is officially obsolete, though it still plays on all MD units, of course. There is no corresponding disk format, probably because of contractual undertakings to Dolby,

I use (if you read some of my posts) SP for analogue recording (eg LPs). But the very first thing I do it to convert it by upload to HiSP (256kbps Atrac3+) which is then easily editable by Sound forge.

When I record PCM format, I use the real thing on Sony's amazing PCM-M10. I also make sure it's always recorded in a 24-bit format before I edit it and then convert down to burn a CD or (blush!) MP3.

BTW the  NetMD interface is not particularly fast or reliable until you get to HiMD. Then it's pretty good. The slowness on decks which have NetMD is more to do with the speed that the control information passes - it's mostly at the speed of SIRCS, to be 100% compatible with remote and front panel display.

I have many wonderful recordings made in LP4, of music played on the radio (orchestras, organs, choirs, string quartets, you name it - just not pop music of any kind). They were all made, not by transfer, but by optical.from the computer. The reason is simple - ATRAC is a logarithmic format. PCM is not.

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