Jump to content
Sony Insider Forums
RustyRoses

The Return to MD

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, Jimma said:

You may know this already but unfortunately SonicStage doesn't recognise FLAC files.  You will have to use something like FLAC Frontend to change them back to WAVs before importing them into SonicStage for transfer to your NH1 once you get your USB cable.

Good point. In fact making a 16-bit file from FLAC is a downgrade (quite a considerable one) from the original CD. What you should do with FLAC files is to convert them direct to the ATRAC file of your choice using Sound Forge 10. SF9 does not understand FLAC, by the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, sfbp said:

In fact making a 16-bit file from FLAC is a downgrade (quite a considerable one) from the original CD.

I am not sure I get this.

In the past, I have archived near 700 CD-s into FLAC, and whenever I converted those files back to WAV I did get the exact copy of the original CD. I used EAC, with "superparanoid" settings, i.e., for gap detection, offset correction, etc. To verify file integrity I used CRC check and md5sum. I did some comparison at the very beginning, burnt a CD from those FLAC/WAVs with the appropriate CUE file, then ripped it again and compared to the original CD. I got bit for bit copies, so I stopped this time consuming process when saw the back up was identical to the original.

I might have missed though something I was not aware of, but I still convert those FLAC files back to WAV with Audacity instead of spinning the original CD-s, when I need an MD copy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wherever you got the idea that a 16bit, 44100Hz FLAC with Level 3 compression produces anything other than exactly the same result as a 16bit, 44100Hz WAV or direct CD recording - unfortunately they mislead you.

FLAC has been chosen as it's a lossless compression format that can be identically translated back to WAV (PCM) at any time and can be played as is on my Mac / Phone as is.

Thusly I can output FLAC files via my Mac's optical jack to my MD's optical jack and get as good a representation of the digital content as if it was coming from the original CD. It'll be in Hi-SP mode for now of course.

When I come to re-record an album to Hi-MD at 352kbps via the USB Cable & Soundstage, I'll be following this workflow:

Quote

16/44.1 FLAC Archive -> 16/44.1 WAV copy -> hard cut at 15500Hz -> Old computer -> 352kbps Atrac3Plus -> MZ-NH1 

Then the WAV files will be deleted and I'll roll around on the floor with my headphones on and my NH1 in my pocket. It's gonna be great. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point is (I think) that CD's are really 20-bit (or so recording) dithered down to 16 bits. You may or may not get the exact bits by ripping a CD. All your experiment proves is that you get the same 16 bits every time you do it. There are different algorithms and ways of getting the data off the CD which corresponds to different "ripping quality". However when you rip to ATRAC, I believe you get something closer to the intended 20 bits. Otherwise it wouldn't make a difference how fast you rip things (note there are different ripping qualities built into Sonic Stage). Your 15500 number indicates something that's simply not true - there is NO 15khz cutoff on real CD's.

No, it's not snake oil or perpetual motion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, sfbp said:

The point is (I think) that CD's are really 20-bit (or so recording) dithered down to 16 bits

...

when you rip to ATRAC, I believe you get something closer to the intended 20 bits.

The original audio can be digitized at any sample rate and bit depth, like 20/48, 24/48, 24/96, 24/192, etc., once it is converted into the standard CD Red Book format, all information that is present in the higher resolution digital audio master but cannot be translated into 16 bit 44,1 khz is actually lost. Forever. No method can bring back 20 or 24 bit original digital audio from 16 bit data.

When you rip a CD, whatever the intended output format is, the ripping application first reads the data on the CD, saves it into WAV file(s), then does the actual conversion. In other words, the same WAV is the base for any further step, no matter what the output codec is. If the data on the CD has only 16 bit 44,1 khz audio, the output format, FLAC, mp3, ATRAC, etc. converted files can have that much information only, at max. None of them can reproduce the original bits and samples of the original master.

I can imagine, that when recording a CD or converting a WAV to 20 bit ATRAC format, the ATRAC codec does apply some sort of enhacements after dithering 16 bit to 20, and that it can result an audically (does such word exist?) better sound. But that 20 bit data is not identical to the original one, because it is impossible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I well remember the "ultra-sophisticated" CD players featuring 20-bit oversampling.

And I would be stunned if all CD's really cut off at 15 Khz. The theoretical limit is half the sampling frequency ie 22.05 Khz.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sfbp said:

I well remember the "ultra-sophisticated" CD players featuring 20-bit oversampling.

That's right. But oversampling is done on the same basis of audio data: namely 16/44,1 read from the CD (or, the WAV, if ripped).

So I think we can say - distinguishing between two independent questions we touched here:

- the CD audio (if ripped properly) WAV can be converted back and forth to FLAC lossless, i.e., FLAC can return the original WAV bit by bit, without losing quality of the original, and

- the original 16/44,1 CD audio data can be enhanced in different ways, to correct/smooth/ increase quantization errors/noise/dynamic range, etc., and ATRAC as a native 20 bit format is very good at it (although, it is a lossy format on the other hand)

My view is that for lossless archiving CD audio (when file size is a matter) FLAC is 100% appropriate (again, with a proper rip), and an ATRAC encoded CD or WAV audio played on appropriate equipment can be audibly (I think this is the right word) better, than the original CD (similarly to those 20 bit oversampling CD players).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Jimma said:

You may know this already but unfortunately SonicStage doesn't recognise FLAC files.  You will have to use something like FLAC Frontend to change them back to WAVs before importing them into SonicStage for transfer to your NH1 once you get your USB cable.

The MZ-NH1 is a fantastic bit of kit and I'm sure you'll be very happy with it.  I love mine:)

 

The WAV format does not suport metadatas. WMA lossless does and is recognized by SonicStage. As an alternative,  dBpoweramp Music Converter can be use for the convertion FLAC to WMA even after the 30 days period (10 files by 10 files) as you will not need to convert dozens of dozens of Flac files just to record or transfert music to one MD disc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, PhilippeC said:

 dBpoweramp Music Converter can be use for the convertion FLAC to WMA lossless

freac (free audio converter, recent version is v 1.0.27) open source software can do this also but without restrictions, see www.freac.org.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, PhilippeC said:

The WAV format does not suport metadatas. 

In fact it does:

”As a derivative of RIFF, WAV files can be tagged with metadata in the INFO chunk. In addition, WAV files can embed any kind of metadata, including but not limited to Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) data or ID3 tags[27] in extra chunks. Applications may not handle this extra information or may expect to see it in a particular place.” (source)

And you can even edit in Audacitiy:

image.jpg

(Picture taken from the net, as I am not at my computer that runs Audacity. Will replace it later)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Rusty

On 29.12.2016 at 6:46 PM, RustyRoses said:

 I've got about 50 in total, most are Sony and Sharp with lots of the 10th Anniversary clear ones and transparent purple 80min Sharps.

Until I pick up the correct USB cable, I'll be using a TOSLink cable with 2x Mini TOSLink adaptors between my MacBook and my MZ-NH1 on Hi-SP. It's not the 352kbps version

 

would you swap some of the MD10th Discs ? I could offer you the cable you need ;-)

I would like to see a picture of the Discs if possible ?

Send me a message when you´re interested

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×