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Sony MDS-E10 defeats SCMS

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Thought it might be worthwhile to note that the Sony MDS-E10 (pro MD deck) not only can ignore the SCMS copy-protect bit—when set to do so—but also will not propagate it. I tested this and I was, for example, able to copy a protected MD from the 930 to the E10, and vice-versa, once the E10 had stripped the SCMS.  Sony does not mention this feature in the E10's manual, at least not in the version I have. The E10 is Type R. I don't know if this applies to other decks in the E-series.

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Yup I believe their silence in the manual is very telling. All the consumer decks have the screed about not making copies. I believe the E10/11/12 do not have that couple of pages :)

Another device that defeats it is the Behringer Ultra Match Pro 2496 - as you pointed out. I decided with all the MD decks in this house, it would be better to get that than yet another deck for purely that feature. YMMV.

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  • 2 weeks later...

HI everybody.

Just see that MDS-E12 has the same SCMS on/off thing in its service manual. I need to talk with phamcu in Vietnam about this, as he used to sell W1 "Full Digital Copy DIY" decks some years ago and just have one E12 decks still to sell.

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  • 3 years later...

I think it depends on your E10 - some start up "MDS-E10" and some "MDS-E10 PRO". Possibly only the PRO version (which I think is just a later version of the E10, no way to tell them apart when off!) has the menu options.  These are as my observations on my E12 (I think this was my first SIF post!).

Kevin

 

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That is so weird. All this time I've had it in my head that the E10/11/12 series are truly "Pro" that is, do not enforce SCMS. Yet the manual proclaims the reverse. And now I remember scratching my head in puzzlement as if to say "why charge all that money if it doesn't actually do second gen copies?". Now the MDS-B5 *definitely* always allowed copying (of course no MDLP). Sounds like they changed their minds, or something, after the model(s) was(were) released.
 

 

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Is it possible the SCMS was forced in some territories (e.g. US) and allowed to be programmable in other (e.g. EU)? i.e. in US versions you don't get the SCMS menu options - on the E10 at least, don't know about the E12.

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This any use for your chap on TH?

(Sorry, useless at this video stuff - on the phone these 14secs were 25MB and I managed to shrink to 5MB - but still not sure why it's so big...)

From what @bluecrab said on the thread linked above, you need to select "Permit".

The video below is from turning it on with the power button. There was no disc in the machine.

(If you're wondering, the machine below the MDS-E10 is a Tascam 112 cassette deck that I rescued and refurbed a few months back - see my other waffly threads on my first encounter with LP4 and audio books from the charity shop...)

 

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Surely you want "inhibit"? That's effectively the setting on my Boehringer (the only device I have apart from PC Sound Card(s) which gives me that choice). I think if there is no copy bit and no original bit then copying is free and untrammeled. Setting permit means you get a standard 1-gen copy.

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No worries! Not exactly a masterpiece - much better examples seen on this forum!

As you say over on TH, is there an MDS-E10 and a MDS-E10 PRO? I'm pretty sure my original-still-not-working-no-I-dont-want-to-talk-about-it E10 just says "MDS-E10" on the display when it starts, i.e. not "MDS-E10 PRO" like in the video above. It won't initialise far enough that I could get into the menu system to look. Maybe the chap on TH has a "non-PRO" and this doesn't have the menu item. Maybe that is a conundrum we can resolve soon, so please report back on what happens over on TH!

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5 minutes ago, sfbp said:

Surely you want "inhibit"? That's effectively the setting on my Boehringer (the only device I have apart from PC Sound Card(s) which gives me that choice).

You could be right. What this means is you're going to make me go back into the shed in the rain and get out a bunch of MD machines and find out...

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OK, so now i've raised the doubt in your mind.....

Raining in July? Reminds me of my teenage years and summers on the farm.

There are two bits in SCMS, you can see them on the Boehringer. One is called "original", the other "copy". There are thusly FOUR states:

Both set - this is after a new recording
Copy set and original cleared - from a copy
Original cleared and copy set - don't remember what this means... oh I know "CANNOT COPY"
BOTH CLEARED - this means there's no protection on the data at all. This is how I think data comes out of my sound card. The Ultramatch Pro allows you to set or clear either bit.

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Right, here goes.

I set up my Sony MDS-E10 PRO and my Tascam MD-350 and connected them only via an optical TOSLINK cable (both machines have both optical in and out).

I have 4 discs:

- Blue is the "master disc" - an MO MD that was dubbed in LP2 from a commercial CD using a Tascam MD-CD1 Mk1. So this is a 1st Gen Digital Copy of a CD.
- I have Yellow, Purple , Black MO MD discs that I make successive generation copies on where permitted.

The MDS-E10 PRO has a menu option "Copy Bit" that can take one of 3 setting: Permit, Inhibit, PreRecorded.

1) MD-350 --TOSLINK--> MDS-E10 PRO

For the first step I play a disc track on the MD-350 and record on the MDS-E10 PRO. I make successive copies of a track Blue -> Yellow then Yellow -> Purple then Purple -> Black. I repeat for all settings of Copy Bit on the MDS-E10 PRO.

Conclusion:

- MDS-E10 PRO will copy (record) via optical TOSLINK, a disc track played on the MD-350 of *any* generation that was recorded with *any* Copy Bit setting used when that track was recorded on the MDS-E10 PRO. The drive in the MDS-E10 PRO is MDM7SC (SC=serial copy?).

On Yellow, Purple and Black discs I now have a set of tracks recorded with each setting of Copy Bit on the MDS-E10 PRO, where Tk1=Permit, Tk2=Inhibit, Tk3=PreRec and Yellow=1st Gen Copy (i.e. a copy of a Blue track), Purple=2nd Gen Copy (i.e. a copy of the respective Yellow track), Black=3rd Gen Copy (i.e. a copy of the respective Purple track).

2) MDS-E10 --TOSLINK--> MD-350

Now I reverse the TOSLINK connection and play on the MDS-E10 PRO and record (where permitted) on the MD-350. MDS-E10 PRO has the Copy Bit setting at Permit (but I now see this setting is irrelevant for playback). This is where I make some further generation copies where I can, but recording using the MD-350 which I presume obeys SCMS coming in on the TOSLINK.

Blue Tk -> Cannot Copy

Yellow Tk1 (Permit) -> Copy to Purple Tk4
Yellow Tk2 (Inhibit) -> Cannot Copy
Yellow Tk3 (PreRec) -> Copy to Purple Tk5

Purple Tk1 (Permit) -> Copy to Black Tk4
Purple Tk2 (Inhibit) -> Cannot Copy
Purple Tk3 (PreRec) -> Copy to Black Tk5
Purple Tk4 (Permit) -> Copy to Black Tk6
Purple Tk5 (PreRec) -> Cannot Copy

Black Tk1 (Permit) -> Copy to Yellow Tk4
Black Tk2 (Inhibit) -> Cannot Copy
Black Tk3 (PreRec) -> Copy to Yellow Tk5
Black Tk4 (Permit) -> Copy to Yellow Tk6
Black Tk5 (PreRec) -> Cannot Copy
Black Tk6 (Permit) -> Copy to Yellow Tk7

So after all of that, some readers are laughing their socks off, because the results are unsurprising.

So, recording on a machine that honours SCMS (the MD-350):

- Tracks with the track recorded as Permit can be copied digitally without generational limit (well at least 3 times) -> the Permit propagates down the generations.
- Tracks recorded as Inhibit cannot be copied. In addition a track dubbed digitally from a CD cannot be copied (using a Tascam MD-CD1 Mk1 at least).
- Tracks recorded as PreRec can be copied once only.

Hope that clears it up.

Kevin

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Brilliant. I think. I need time to digest but have house duties (set table) right now. BTW I think SC is Serial Control, ie the DB9 socket.

There's one setting in there that we haven't seen, which is both bits cleared, I think. So you have a three-state machine. We just acquired a new handyman who, on the recommendation of a friend fixed our tumble-drier. He being of Russian-Ukrainian parentage and growing up in Moldova highlighted for me the fact that there is the Western way (on or off), and the Russian way (on, off, or maybe).

I remember learning briefly about the Russian Ternary computer, too. Base 3.

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The different SCMS behaviour we (may) see between E10 machines could be down to a change made on later machines. I have "Supplement-1" to the E10 Service Manual (probably from Elektrotanya) and it describes a different resistor configuration for the SCMS setting. Which way this takes SCMS handling is not clear, it just says "now do this".

Note in the schematic the interesting point, pin 87 (pin list=AVSS,schematic=SCMS) versus pin 72 (pin list=SCMS, schematic=CDR/MD) (see schematic, 3rd image)

If you're intrigued by R435 (which is not on the schematic), it's just a resistor that can pull up pin 87, whereas R434 pulls it down - fit one only otherwise you'll create a power supply short (see PCB layout, 4th image).

Note: red/blue annotations added by me.

E10_SCMS_Service_Note_Header.PNGE10_SCMS_Service_Note.PNGE10_SCMS_R434_JW302.PNGE10_SCMS_R434_R435_PCB.PNG

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14 hours ago, kgallen said:

- MDS-E10 PRO will copy (record) via optical TOSLINK, a disc track played on the MD-350 of *any* generation that was recorded with *any* Copy Bit setting used when that track was recorded on the MDS-E10 PRO. The drive in the MDS-E10 PRO is MDM7SC (SC=serial copy?).

Interesting. I had assumed that the person over on TH having issues was trying to record using their MDS-E10 as the recorder and that SCMS was preventing this (which shouldn't be the case based on your testing - assuming the "PRO" model is the same as the non-"PRO" version). Having re-read their post, however, there is nothing to confirm this is the way round they were doing things.

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What (where) are GC and UC? These are apparently new designations of market destinations I have never seen before. Used to E, AEP, US etc....

Looks like your theory about some markets allowing it might just be accurate.

BTW with "permit" sounds like SCMS bits (original, copy) are BOTH cleared, like on my Boehringer. Can you confirm this in some way by looking at bit patterns in waveform? (sorry I don't mean to make work just for the sake of it).

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11 minutes ago, sfbp said:

What (where) are GC and UC? These are apparently new designations of market destinations I have never seen before. Used to E, AEP, US etc....

I thought I saw a definition for GC and UC somewhere but after posting above I couldn't find it again to reference as I thought there might be a query (and here it is!).

For sure, UC was USA and Canada.

I think GC covered everywhere else they seem to have specific locale designations for (EU/GB, AUS, J).

Ah here we go:

sony_abbrev.PNG

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I get the impression SCMS was never enforced in the J model - maybe not enforced in any J MD model? Would be interesting if anyone other than Techmoan has some Japan-sourced machine and if any of them give a hoot to SCMS adherence.

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Actually I get the impression that the E model is what is sold in Japan. Take a look on buyee/yahoo and see if you can figure by looking at the pictures. The one I looked at had english on the backplane, not Japanese.

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I was using the E10 earlier tonight. It's set to ignore SCMS and does so reliably. Most or even perhaps all of the E-series decks can do that...E12 users also report success. I have the US model. BearBoy, if you want to let that Tapehead person know HowTo, it's just this: Setup Menu > Copy Bit > [Permit]. That setting is deep into the menu.

"...maybe not enforced in any J MD model?" If J = Japan, then yes, enforced, as on my JPN MXD-D400.

IIRC, the E!0 actually strips SCMS, not just ignores it....thing is, I don;t usually need to take things that far.

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