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31 minutes ago, zzzuppp said:

Where are you in Poland, Stachu?

Little town Lesko, South-Eastern Poland: map

Mine display gets dimmer and dimmer, it's impossible to view it in bright light anymore, only in darkness or deep shade :/

I also have JB940QS and it works ok.

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Hello everyone! I'm new to this forum, and let me say that I love to see the love and conversation about MiniDisc keep going on I'm popping in just to let you know that I've recently releas

Yes, it's very likely that you're missing the drivers. If you're on windows 10, just install the WinUSB driver using the installer here: https://zadig.akeo.ie/ . Then, close the browser and try again.

Me too!! and I like Italian coffee too! Thanks for your answers, Stefano. Greetings to you in Italy, we are watching you closely from the UK to see what's coming next for us corona-wise... Y

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On 4/2/2020 at 10:13 AM, Stachu said:

Unfortunately it didn't help. I reverted REC setting to HiMD and the unit is still not being listed in the Mac.

Hi Stachu - it's been so long since my MD machines showed up on my Mac, just wondering where on the Mac you're seeing them? I'm having no problems with the app interface though (I downloaded Stefano's software).

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On 4/2/2020 at 10:50 AM, Stachu said:

Ahhh yes, you're correct - I can control it again ;D

A question: there are player's controls in the UI - but seems they don't work with the MD - when I click eg. the play button - nothing happens. Just curious...

Player controls on the App work just fine with my MZRH1, so maybe something specific to Stachu's setup?

Meanwhile I'm not going to try deleting any songs via the interface in case I end up with the same problems as Stachu. I can delete them ordinarily on the machine itself.

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1 hour ago, zzzuppp said:

Hi Stachu - it's been so long since my MD machines showed up on my Mac, just wondering where on the Mac you're seeing them? I'm having no problems with the app interface though (I downloaded Stefano's software).

Actually I never used MD with Mac - until Stefano's UI popped up. I only used myold Win 10 laptop over past week - that's all. But now the MS recording is a piece of cake ;D

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Hi guys, I did an experiment with Stefano's UI and my Walkman player NW-S706F (which is still in a perfect shape). However the UI recognizes the device as "Walkman", I get the same error when connecting RH1 set into the HiMD mode: 

The requested interface implements a protected class.

Perhaps the player is also protected by Sony :/ Besides the player still works smoothly with SonicStage 4.3 on my old Win laptop.

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Generally speaking, the non-MD ATRAC devices seem to prefer Hi-MD, if I recall.

I'm very excited about the breakthroughs reported here and can't wait to try 'em. Unfortunately real life has been getting in the way a bit lately, hence my failure to chime in with everyone else and say "Well done". I am curious to read about the embedded technology - assuming it is based on the pioneering work done by the #linux-minidisc group and particularly Michael Karcher.

One of the things I never persuaded him to work on was the AAL (Atrac Advanced Lossless) - he ran out of time as his career plans required to step away from MD endeavours. The codecs really cannot be that different as it appears that Sound Forge handles them seamlessly. From the description they must work in the same way.

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I managed to run this app on MZ-RH1 (Windows 10 PRO 64 ), but no luck with Sony MZ-N910 or AIWA AND-1, it detects both units and even records on MZ-N910 but when I remove the disc it is blank.

Anyway great job Stefano!!!.

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1 hour ago, sfbp said:

One of the things I never persuaded him to work on was the AAL (Atrac Advanced Lossless) - he ran out of time as his career plans required to step away from MD endeavours. The codecs really cannot be that different as it appears that Sound Forge handles them seamlessly. From the description they must work in the same way.

That sounds really interesting. I wonder if anybody at Sony would ever help to develop MD further by skilled fans.

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1 hour ago, kris01 said:

I managed to run this app on MZ-RH1 (Windows 10 PRO 64 ), but no luck with Sony MZ-N910 or AIWA AND-1, it detects both units and even records on MZ-N910 but when I remove the disc it is blank.

Anyway great job Stefano!!!.

Thanks kris01!

Could you try to press the "stop" button on the mz-n910 after a recording, before removing the disc? That should force the TOC to be written, and the MD not seen as blank anymore.

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3 hours ago, sfbp said:

Generally speaking, the non-MD ATRAC devices seem to prefer Hi-MD, if I recall.

I'm very excited about the breakthroughs reported here and can't wait to try 'em. Unfortunately real life has been getting in the way a bit lately, hence my failure to chime in with everyone else and say "Well done". I am curious to read about the embedded technology - assuming it is based on the pioneering work done by the #linux-minidisc group and particularly Michael Karcher.

One of the things I never persuaded him to work on was the AAL (Atrac Advanced Lossless) - he ran out of time as his career plans required to step away from MD endeavours. The codecs really cannot be that different as it appears that Sound Forge handles them seamlessly. From the description they must work in the same way.

Absolutely! I ported the libnetmd from the linux-minidisc project to javascript and published as a library here: https://github.com/cybercase/netmd-js . This might help other developers who wants to write their own app, in case mine does not fit their needs.

If you're interested in the technology I wrote a short article on my blog where I describe the steps taken to build the app: https://stefano.brilli.me/blog/web-minidisc/ . And the source code is available here: https://github.com/cybercase/webminidisc . 

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3 hours ago, Stachu said:

That sounds really interesting. I wonder if anybody at Sony would ever help to develop MD further by skilled fans.

Legend has it that the Sony engineers persuaded the company to let them build the MZ-RH1 just because they COULD. I'm sure some of that team must have been passionate about MDs - but it all happened 15 years ago....and they all left to join Google... I quote:

'Shigatsu-Baka Wire Service Tokyo Sony executives today reported the settlement of a long-running power struggle that has raged between their electronics and entertainment divisions. The outcome allows Sony Electronics to introduce the MZ-RH1, a new portable Minidisc audio recorder that fulfills the format's long-held promise of versatility and flexibility as well as living up to Sony's sullied-but-not-yet-dead reputation for building innovative and desirable electronics gear.

However, the agreement stipulates that Sony Electronics must stop further development of the format.

"Sony Entertainment was harsh on us" said Miyazaki Kendo, head of Sony Electronics Minidisc development lab, "Everytime we explored adding features that every other modern audio recorder offered but that were glaringly absent from Minidisc, such as unrestricted uploading and downloading of audio, the entertainment division would start throwing their weight around and making everyone miserable, insisting that such flexibility would somehow be used for pirating audio."

MZ-RH1
Sony MZ-RH1 Minidisc Recorder

 

"Eventually, we engineers just got fed up and secretly built the device we had always wanted to make. By the time the project was discovered it was so far along, and so compelling, that an agreement was struck with Sony Entertainment allowing us to introduce the unit to market in order to recoup expenses they said we had wasted in developing it. But this agreement came with the proviso that we never innovate on our own again without explicit permission from them."

"We did finally make the Minidisc machine everbody knew Sony was capable of," said Miyazaki, "but at a considerable cost." Some members of Sony's vaunted Shinagawa engineering labs have felt the burden has been too high however; since January over two dozen engineers and scientists have left to join Google Japan where, it is rumored, a wireless portable audio device with a wow-factor exceeding the iPod is under development.'

I wonder what this 'device with a wow-factor exceeding the iPod' was? Surely not the mp-3 player?? :mellow:

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10 hours ago, cybercase said:

Thanks kris01!

Could you try to press the "stop" button on the mz-n910 after a recording, before removing the disc? That should force the TOC to be written, and the MD not seen as blank anymore.

I push stop button but it didnt't help.  If I push button on web app it records TOC.  Strange how fast i sending file to md unit on MZ-RH1 it works slower.

I remove disc after I pushed button stop.

 

 

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5 hours ago, zzzuppp said:

Legend has it that the Sony engineers persuaded the company to let them build the MZ-RH1 just because they COULD. I'm sure some of that team must have been passionate about MDs - but it all happened 15 years ago....and they all left to join Google... I quote: [...]

wow, that is a story. IMHO Sony has taken many wrong decisions that put them behind Apple as it comes to audio devices. The decisions seem to be stubborn, ommiting any market changes happening at that time. Too bad. As for me, Sony used to stand for built quality and visual design that very few companies offered at Sony's peak.

Hope one day we'd learn some more about that secret project ;-)

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On 4/5/2020 at 12:47 AM, zzzuppp said:

However, the agreement stipulates that Sony Electronics must stop further development of the format.

"Sony Entertainment was harsh on us" said Miyazaki Kendo, head of Sony Electronics Minidisc development lab, "Everytime we explored adding features that every other modern audio recorder offered but that were glaringly absent from Minidisc, such as unrestricted uploading and downloading of audio, the entertainment division would start throwing their weight around and making everyone miserable, insisting that such flexibility would somehow be used for pirating audio."

So everyone went out and bought MP3 players, then copy-paste-copy-paste to their heart's content. I could never figure out Sony's thinking, it stopped any further MD development but certainly didn't stop pirating. It also didn't stop Sony making MP3 players either.

What on earth did they think an MD player was going to do, launch nuclear missiles?

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@Another MD fanatic

Hi, I do agree. Iyt's been such a waste of human knowledge, talents, resources. Sony lost because of its subborness :(

Btw, I wonder if there is any chance - teorethically speaking - to "upgrade" MD player/recorder to read any potential future MD codes - just like the ATRAC lossless that was mentioned in this tread?...

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Finally found time to try it out. The source code seems to indicate Firefox is an allowed choice. Well it wasn't. Please advise.

With the latest Chrome and an MZ-N910 (NETMD760 driver installed as per Sonic Stage) I get the message "unknown device from Sony Corp. - paired" for the selectable device in the connection window. Then when I selected it and hit "Connect" (blue button), it says Access Denied.

I can try some more devices.

What's the best way to diagnose this? Do I need to remove the "official" NetMD device driver? That will be a pain for many people (but not me, because I can simply go to a computer that has never had any Sonic Stage install, and access the music files I want to transfer, over the network).

The major gaps that I see from reviewing your materials are:

1. Support for HiMD (HiSP, AAL, PCM etc). Let us know how we can help, eg finding you a HiMD to play with
2. Support for ATRAC CD (this I created but the L-M gang told me to "fork off" and not being of a combative nature, I gave up) and maybe other ATRAC devices. NW-HD3 and 5, as well as things like the NW-F887 and NW-ZX1 and NW-S754/5/6 (Japanese model only). These are all seen as generic ATRAC Device(s) by Sonic Stage (and the now defunct Mora) and it would be really nice to have support via this new method.
3. (mentioned before) Atrac Advanced Lossless

Also I have no idea whether the encryption thing is still an issue as all my files are decrypted and I am not in a great mood to encrypt things to test this out.

But this is great. The other thing which I believe may never be solved is the ability to reset the TrProtect flag which gets set on transfers from NetMD. If you can find a way round this, it would be amazing!!! Currently there is NO way to get NetMD-created tracks off an SP/MDLP disk except by playback. MZ-RH1 can do uploads to the PC (maybe you call them downloads!?) but only of tracks that were recorded by optical or analogue input.

Stephen (as a kid I had an auntie who called me Stefanos).

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Hi Stephen, thanks for trying it out.

7 hours ago, sfbp said:

Finally found time to try it out. The source code seems to indicate Firefox is an allowed choice. Well it wasn't. Please advise.

 

That's my mistake. I forgot to remove the Firefox reference from the template I used to start the project.
Unfortunately, Firefox does not support the WebUSB standard, and this is the sole reason why it doesn't work with it. Should the Firefox team decide to support WebUSB, the app will start to work like in Chrome/Chromium.
 

7 hours ago, sfbp said:

With the latest Chrome and an MZ-N910 (NETMD760 driver installed as per Sonic Stage) I get the message "unknown device from Sony Corp. - paired" for the selectable device in the connection window. Then when I selected it and hit "Connect" (blue button), it says Access Denied.

I can try some more devices.

What's the best way to diagnose this? Do I need to remove the "official" NetMD device driver? That will be a pain for many people (but not me, because I can simply go to a computer that has never had any Sonic Stage install, and access the music files I want to transfer, over the network).

I'm not sure of what your current setup is, but if you're running Windows 10 then I suppose you're using and unsigned version of the NETMD760 driver.
If this is the case, unfortunately the app can't work with such driver. The only way to make it work is to remove the unsigned sony driver and replace it with the generic WinUSB driver (I've linked the WinUSB driver installer in the home page of the github project).

Using a computer which doesn't have any driver installed is the best way to test the app. Just remember that you need to install the WinUSB driver on Windows, or configure your access permissions on linux. Here's a few instructions on how to do it https://github.com/cybercase/webminidisc
 

7 hours ago, sfbp said:

The major gaps that I see from reviewing your materials are:

1. Support for HiMD (HiSP, AAL, PCM etc). Let us know how we can help, eg finding you a HiMD to play with
2. Support for ATRAC CD (this I created but the L-M gang told me to "fork off" and not being of a combative nature, I gave up) and maybe other ATRAC devices. NW-HD3 and 5, as well as things like the NW-F887 and NW-ZX1 and NW-S754/5/6 (Japanese model only). These are all seen as generic ATRAC Device(s) by Sonic Stage (and the now defunct Mora) and it would be really nice to have support via this new method.
3. (mentioned before) Atrac Advanced Lossless

Also I have no idea whether the encryption thing is still an issue as all my files are decrypted and I am not in a great mood to encrypt things to test this out.

But this is great. The other thing which I believe may never be solved is the ability to reset the TrProtect flag which gets set on transfers from NetMD. If you can find a way round this, it would be amazing!!! Currently there is NO way to get NetMD-created tracks off an SP/MDLP disk except by playback. MZ-RH1 can do uploads to the PC (maybe you call them downloads!?) but only of tracks that were recorded by optical or analogue input.

I basically wrote this app looking at my use cases, as a side project during this annoying lockdown.
I reckon there are features that others would love to have, but I fear some of them are out of my reach, and that's why I open sourced the app, so that any interested developer could just clone the project and make the changes he likes.

about your points:
1. From the few reports I've received, I think that HiMD support cannot be done in the browser, as sony decided to "protect" the HiMD devices family by blocking the access to them.
A workaround to this could be to bundle the app into an Electron container, just like Platinum MD, but at the current state that would be a lot of work.

By the way, I'm pretty sure the official linux-minidisc project (https://github.com/linux-minidisc/linux-minidisc) does support HiMD through their QHiMDTransfer app. It might worth checking out.

2 and 3. I'm not an expert of atrac devices, and not sure if they all use the same NetMD protocol, but that's definitely out of the scope of this small side project.

About the TrProtect flag, unfortunately I'm not aware of any trick to remove it, but I'll definitely add this feature if I find a way to do that.
About downloads from the device to the pc, I'm currently working on a simple feature to dump your tracks via analogue or optical output, since my device doesn't support usb downloads like the mh-rh1. I'll try to ship it during the next weeks.

Hope this answers some of your doubts.

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That certainly explains why it didn't work - lack of signing of the existing driver. We had an offer to sign the driver, but the problem then is it now opens people's computers to whoever signs that driver (eg I could do that myself, but why would the world trust me?). Big bucks for a DDK these days, and Windows hardware labs certification etc etc.

If I got rid of that driver, would WinUSB allow SonicStage to work correctly, do you think?

I will indeed see if I can get the setup going on a relatively virgin machine.

QHiMDTransfer never really solved some basic problems, unless I failed to keep up with the "final" release. They failed, for example to deal with tracks that started other than on a cluster boundary, and I'm not sure they ever managed to WRITE disks. But I admit I gave up when the group kinda fell apart, owing to pressures of "real life" (mine and theirs too).

I don't have any "doubts" about what you've done - it's wonderful. But the many-times-cursed SonicStage has a lot of features.

As far as HiMD support goes, I'm surprised it's not working. But you maybe don't understand that its mode of access to the disk is entirely different from legacy (SP, MDLP) minidisc. It treats the formatted disk as a generic storage device, mostly. So the access (and works on Atrac CD too) is to a blocked device with the one enhancement that every file created gets encrypted by the key of the unit and some stuff to do with where it lies in the PKI created by Sony. However setting the leaf ID to 00000000 (which is also done by the decrypting program buried in File Conversion Tool) bears wondrous results. By contrast, legacy minidisc data is never encrypted, except in the final step when a PC file is made of what's been uploaded to the computer. ATRAC devices, AtracCD and HiMD all work with the same file structures.

Maybe that gives you a clue how to do it. I'm not sure I have the skills any more. The wonderful bit I am in awe of is your use of Javascript to make it all work. I recall how they said JS could be used for "just about anything", and this proves that rather nicely.

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1 hour ago, sfbp said:

If I got rid of that driver, would WinUSB allow SonicStage to work correctly, do you think?

 

Unfortunately Sonic stage wouldn't work with WinUSB. You would have to switch back to the unsigned driver... but I never tried the procedure myself. If you've a spare PC to test the app, I would go for that.

1 hour ago, sfbp said:

QHiMDTransfer never really solved some basic problems, unless I failed to keep up with the "final" release. They failed, for example to deal with tracks that started other than on a cluster boundary, and I'm not sure they ever managed to WRITE disks. But I admit I gave up when the group kinda fell apart, owing to pressures of "real life" (mine and theirs too).

I understand. Reverse engineering a protocol like NetMD it's hard, takes time and resources. However, they've done an amazing job... And without their work I wouldn't have been able to write this app.

1 hour ago, sfbp said:

I don't have any "doubts" about what you've done - it's wonderful. But the many-times-cursed SonicStage has a lot of features.

 

Thanks, I really appreciate you liked the app.

By the way, Sonic Stage has undoubtedly a long history, and I know there's no competition with my app in terms of features. However, I still hope this might be useful to anyone who doesn't want to install an unsigned driver in his computer, or it's using a mac (like I do) or a linux pc.

1 hour ago, sfbp said:

But you maybe don't understand that its mode of access to the disk is entirely different from legacy (SP, MDLP) minidisc. It treats the formatted disk as a generic storage device, mostly

I only read something about that. I've never owned a HiMD device to play with... maybe one day I'll buy a cheap unit on ebay.

1 hour ago, sfbp said:

The wonderful bit I am in awe of is your use of Javascript to make it all work. I recall how they said JS could be used for "just about anything", and this proves that rather nicely.

That was exactly the challenging part of the whole project. Nowadays browsers let you build apps that are on par with standard Desktop apps, removing the hassle of downloading, installing, updating, and distributing the app on all the OS.

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Hello!

I'm new here, so please be gentle...

Signed up to say how amazed I am with this app!

a couple of things that would make me love it a little more. 

* Use the software to import a CD (with added cddb information) direct to a minidisc player (i have a daft amount of CDs, and to be able to do this would be sweeeeet!)
*Atrac3+ support... Might be a long shot, but thought I would ask. Loved cramming a shed load of songs onto one minidisc back in the day :D

that's it :D

Cheers again! 

-Lewis

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6 minutes ago, LewisGamer said:

* Use the software to import a CD (with added cddb information) direct to a minidisc player (i have a daft amount of CDs, and to be able to do this would be sweeeeet!)

Hi there, welcome :D

I get very good results with Exact Audio Copy, you can choose a number of import audio formats for importing CDs. It also downloads all CD info from online databases. You can get it HERE (safe link). Btw, you don't need to encode tracks to Atrac when using Stefano's web UI.

Enjoy!

Stan

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