Questions From A Md Forum Virgin!

[Trebor]

Hi everyone!

I've just discovered this forum a few hours ago, and have been read so many threads that my head is spinning! I originally invested in MD technology in '99 (after years of resistance) as an alternative to cassettes. At the moment, I only own first generation players - the HCD-MD373 (which I've recorded all my MDs on, so far) and the MZ-R500 (used strictly as a walkman). I've never bothered with the MDLP format because of its sound limitations (especially with MDLP4). As for NetMD, I never use my computer for music recording purposes (call me old fashioned, if you will).

Anyway, I have a few questions that I am still unclear about (due to my head still spinning). I'm aware that some of the following has already been discussed (with this being my first post, please bear with me), but I would appreciate it if these issues could be further clarified for me:

1) I was amazed to read from some that the MD format (is this what you all refer to as SP?) has better sound quality than MP3. But what about NetMD and Hi-MD? Which of the MD technologies offer the best sound quality?

2) Why should I consider Hi-MD technology (apart from greater storage capacity)?

3) I read that uploading music from SPMD to PC is impossible. Does anyone know if this will ever become a reality? And if it is possible, then how?

4) I've noticed that a lot of people have had problems with their MD recorders after roughly 3 years. A friend in the know told me that this is usually because the optical pick-up needs replacing (which has a life-span of at least 1.5 years, easy). Would you consider this to be acceptable, after the investment made in MD technology?

5) Have any of you had problems getting your MD players repaired satisfactorily (especially from Sony repair centres)?

6) What advantages do MP3/WAV/etc. have over MD technology (if any at all)?

Many thanks.

[The Low Volta]

welcome to MDCF...

1. only the very first recorders only had one format (sp)... Hi-MD for example spans a whole range of qualities from 48kbps (bad quality) to Hi-SP (256kbps = very good) and even can do PCM (=CD-quality)... drawback is that the higher the quality/the more space is required... so for listening, most ppl here settle for Hi-SP (26kbps) or atrac3 @ 132kbps

difference with MP3 depends mainly on the quality and bitrate of the MP3...there are very good encoded MP3's out there, but some bad ones as well...so it really depends

BTW, the 2nd gen Hi-MD can play MP3's without converting them

2. the very best feature is the faster than realtime digital uploading to PC of your own recordings

3. digital uploading of SP is impossible and will be for ever... you can however get it onto your PC by analogue re-recording (see this thread)

4. it depends, my NH900 has allowed me to make some priceless recordings and save them for eternity, so it's already been worth its price IMHO

5. I had to send my NH900 in for repairs quite soon after I bought it and got it back fully repaired, but it did take long! (couple of weeks, 5 or 6, don't remember precisely)

6. MP3 is very broadly accepted as the 'standard' (but it really isn't standardised) so that gives more flexibility (like if you ever want to switch to another type/brand of player, etc...)

wav (44.1/16) is CD quality so this is very good compared to all lossy compressions, but it takes up much more space... PCM is wav so wav can be used on Hi-MD

but there is a very big difference between he codec (=format, like atrac3+, Hi-SP, SP, MP3, PCM,...) and the hardware (like HD-players, flash-players, MD, Hi-MD...), be carefull not to mix those too much, as it gets quite confusing

so read a bit more and post more specific questions concening your requirements afterwards...

greetings, Volta

[Trebor]

Hi The Low Volta!

Thanks for your reply - I had a feeling you'd be the first one to reply (you seem to have a monopoly on the forum when it comes to replies!).

Are you sure that SPMDs will never be able to be uploaded to a PC? What about soundcards with optical-in? I'm not complaining (as I was more curious about transferring my MD collection to PC, rather than being desperate to do so), but Hi-MD has only been on the European market for roughly a year! Considering that MD technology had been around for over ten years by this point, with many loyal customers possessing scores of MD recordings recorded on older generation equipment, this is a real slap in the face.

I was originally against MD technology, but eventually saw its advantages and bought everything Sony. Even faced with this fact, I still don't regret making the switch from cassette to MD. However, how can anyone place their trust in Sony again if this is the way loyal customers of their MD technology are treated? My MD collection is verging towards 250 - some of the CDs I recorded have long been deleted, and I consider myself quite lucky to possess them in some kind of digital format. But the limitations that Sony has placed on this format is deplorable.

I, like the rest of you, believe that there is still plenty of potential for future MD development. But with the number of confusing MD formats available, with their lack of full compatibility with each other, and with Sony's disinterest in continuing to promote this product things don't look too good. It seems strange that Sony and Phillips were at each other's throats in the MD/DCC war, a decade ago...

I think the main thing that makes me angry is not the current state of the MD, but these two points:

1) Formats are going in and out of fashion far too quickly. When an individual obtains music that they passionately love, they'll want to enjoy it for the rest of their naturally life (and hopefully on the same format with adequate aftersales service). Vinyl is roughly 100 years old and is still around. The cassette is still doing the rounds even after 50 years. But after ten years, the MD is 'out'! So, how many more years before the MP3 goes out of favour? In 2/3 years time? For how long can the consumer continuously change from one format to another without feeling like a mug? I want to enjoy my music on a 'stable' format - I don't want to place more importance on the format or technology than the music, and that is what's gravely wrong about the current state of home music entertainment industry.

2) 15 years ago we had CD, cassette and vinyl to choose from - two of which are analog alternatives. As consumers, we were spoilt for choice (and rightfully so). And now? MP3 and, er... MP3! Yes, I know, MP3 is just one of many downloading technologies available, but they all require the same equipment (i.e. a computer). Yes, there is still CD-R technology but that doesn't compare to MD technology. MD technology is the closest rival to hard drive downloading (working on a different premise, in terms of format and equipment), and I find it disheartening that the manufacturers (especially Sony) are more or less forcing us consumers down one particular path. Sony could (and should) have marketed the MD as an alternative. With changes in the industry, the focus should have been moved from the inferiority of cassettes to the advantages over hard drive technology (while still maintaining full compatibility with earlier generations of MDs). Jesus! It's not as if we're asking too much here, eh?

Anyway, enough of my ranting. I just thought I should purge myself.

MD RULES!!!

[dex Otaku]

Are you sure that SPMDs will never be able to be uploaded to a PC? What about soundcards with optical-in?

. . . Considering that MD technology had been around for over ten years by this point, with many loyal customers possessing scores of MD recordings recorded on older generation equipment, this is a real slap in the face.

We're pretty sure. The one thing that might change this is customer pressure on Sony - and MD and HiMD are pretty small and fragmented markets, comparitively speaking.

Yes, MD has been around since 1992, but keep in mind several things:

* widely-available high-quality low-cost digital audio workstation-type hardware and software are relatively recent developments

* MD was created predominately as a consumer format

* MD, outside of Japan and the UK, basically flopped as a consumer product, but

* it succeeded [again outside of Japan and the UK] with widespread adoption in various segments of the broadcast industry, where analogue-to-analogue copying is [or rather, was] the norm, and professional equipment is far more common [such as HHB's portadisc with open USB copying of SP mode discs, or internal MD drives that allowed direct copying to PCs - both of which cost thousands of dollars]

* perhaps most importantly, that at the time when MD was developed, the only consumer standards for digital transfer were coax and optical SPDIF, limited only by the weak content control system of SCMS

The rest of my reply should perhaps qualify me for Low Volta's tagline, "professional nag."

. . . with the number of confusing MD formats available, with their lack of full compatibility with each other, and with Sony's disinterest in continuing to promote this product things don't look too good.

Any step forward [enhancement] such as MDLP is going to cause incompatibilites. NetMD itself is not incompatible with the original format, per se.

HiMD is supposed to be a replacement format, not an enhancement. As I've said elsewhere before, I feel that backward-compatibility is more a courtesy than an obligation on Sony's part.

I wouldn't necessarily call Sony disinterested, either. With legacy MD we are dealing with a format that's 10+ years old and has long since lost any claim at being called 'state of the art.' Even MDLP doesn't qualify at that. And HiMD, being limited to 16-bit audio, I would refer to as a format aimed specifically at consumers, as 20+ -bit systems have become widely prevalent in professional use. I would consider the dearth of updated pro equipment a testament to this opinion.

Formats are going in and out of fashion far too quickly.

What formats are you referring to, here? As far as physical carriers go, the only truly prevalent formats in recent years have been CD [been around since the early 1980s] and DVD [since 1996, which saw the fastest widespread adoption of probably any media format, ever.]

Vinyl is roughly 100 years old and is still around.

The LP record was introduced in 1948.

The cassette is still doing the rounds even after 50 years.

Cassette was introduced in the very late-1960s, and didn't really penetrate in other than professional use until the introduction of the Walkman.

As far as being distribution formats, cassette and LP are both more or less dead in most majour markets. For specific uses they are still available, but you don't see them in record stores any more, do you? For that matter, neither do you see prerecorded MDs.

But after ten years, the MD is 'out'! So, how many more years before the MP3 goes out of favour? In 2/3 years time?

You're talking apples and oranges here. MP3 is not a physical carrier; MD is. Name a single prerecorded physical medium that actually uses MP3 - there aren't any.

Electronic distribution has the ability to change more rapidly, though playback devices have to keep up to that hectic pace. Keep in mind also that MP3 is as old as legacy MD is, and has seen widespread use in online distribution, whether legal or not, only since about 1997.

For how long can the consumer continuously change from one format to another without feeling like a mug? I want to enjoy my music on a 'stable' format - I don't want to place more importance on the format or technology than the music, and that is what's gravely wrong about the current state of home music entertainment industry.

I'm not going to disagree with you, in principle, but in all honesty the only "stable format" that really exists is 1/4" analogue tape, which hasn't seen majour distribution in prerecorded media since the 1970s. CD, in those terms, is a huge success and is likely to stick around for a fair while more.

15 years ago we had CD, cassette and vinyl to choose from - two of which are analog alternatives. As consumers, we were spoilt for choice (and rightfully so). And now? MP3 and, er... MP3! Yes, I know, MP3 is just one of many downloading technologies available, but they all require the same equipment (i.e. a computer).

Bollocks! For widespread distribution we now see competition building between SACD, CD and HDCD [relatively dead in the water], and DVD-A. Remember, if you're talking about formats you can actually buy, you should only really be talking about those based on a physical carrier of some kind. Optical discs are the current trend, yes.

As for all online distribution requiring the same equipment, bollocks to that as well. Online content formats are diverging into AAC, MP3, WMA, and other encoding and container formats. These are just encoding and container formats though. The equipment to play them is hardly stable or consistent by any stretch of the imagination, unless you're running Windows. Throw DRM as part of the container format question into the argument, and further problems are introduced. Competing container/DRM formats aren't even compatible across widely-available playback devices, even when the use the same encoding format.

. . .  I find it disheartening that the manufacturers (especially Sony) are more or less forcing us consumers down one particular path.

While it may be disheartening, it is reality. Consider that 1/4" tape, LP records, cassette, CD, and basically every format you can think of were introduced by specific corporate interests at one point or another over the last 60 years, and you'll see the paradox in your argument.

While it's tough to decide, it's in the best interests of media distributors, equipment manufacturers, and the buying public for there only to be so many choices in terms of [physical] formats. Fragmentation in the industry produces duplication [in terms of having to make multiple formats] which drives up costs for everyone.

Anyway.

[The Low Volta]

wow, what great posts... I really love reading views like these...

but to come back to one particular question:

Are you sure that SPMDs will never be able to be uploaded to a PC? What about soundcards with optical-in?

I was talking about 'uploading' by which I meant the faster than realtime digital transfer of your recording(s) to a PC... and that will never happen (with consumer equipment)

you could try to digitally (re)record the music in realtime to PC if you have a MD with optical out (Hi-MD's do not have that) and a PC soundcard with optical in (I do not have these options, so I can't test it)...

but I myself do not really require realtime digital transfer/recording of my stuff, 'cause at least for me, the little quality loss of going the analogue way does not really annoy me (but I'm mostly recording speech/interviews) but it is the realtime part that gets on my nerves so for me the biggest advantage of digit uploading with Hi-MD is the 'faster than realtime' and the 'no quality loss' is a very nice 'extra feature'...

just try it if you have the equipment...

Volta

[dex Otaku]

I've done a bit of recording like that [documentary-type, of parties, events and such, maybe 100 hours' worth] in HiSP . The compression isn't enough to affect what's mostly speech and sparse ambience, and the upload time is that much faster. What do you use, Low Volta?

[The Low Volta]

What do you use, Low Volta?

For my more documentary type recordings (speeches, debates, conferences, coloquia and my godson's little 'yelps') but also for my interviews (+/- 25 for my masters thesis) I use Hi-SP as well...

The quality is more than satisfactory and indeed it uploads nice and fast (so I can start transcripting the interviews quickly... yay )

For music, I'll probably go for PCM if possible, but that hasn't really been tested yet...I still do not have any decent stereo/binaural mics and I do not expect to have much time to look further (or learn to make 'em myself, as suggested by greenmachine)

Until now I have only taped a stealth-test (see if I can sneak the equipment in before I invest in something extra) with my mono mic (sounded horrible ) and one long recording (way too long for PCM and I didn't feel like switching discs with my wet hands) off the mixer in the bar I used to work...

but I plan to delve into live rec'ing (music) after I finish my writing and think I'll be using the (brilliant but slow) PCM a lot then

Volta

[MusicBringer]

This thread is SUCH an interesting read. I've enjoyed it immensely.

Thanks for your reply - I had a feeling you'd be the first one to reply

←

First again The Low Volta Well Done (and well written)

And you too dex Otaku, I think your post are always worth reading. And this post is no exception.

The LP record was introduced in 1948. 

←

Your comment make me think. So I looked up this link which I found an interesting read. I can remember playing single sided records on my Gran's wind-up player in the fifties - and these records were made several years earlier. One was a Scottish recording called "John John put your trewsers on" - to be said with a Scottish accent as a kid it amused me.

Any way Trebor, thanks for starting the thread (and thanks again for the interesting replies. ) As you said

MD RULES!!!

[dex Otaku]

I still have some of my great-grandparents' ceramic 78s from the early 1900s. Pretty much afraid to play them without proper equipment at this point.

[The Low Volta]

I still have some of my great-grandparents' ceramic 78s from the early 1900s.

wow, that's vintage man!

I always enjoy listening to my parent's collection of LPs from the 60's... including some vintage flower-power stuff ("hair: the musical",etc...), some very nice early dutch chanson/student protest songs (like Jaap Fisher,etc... before it went all 'schlager'-stuff but still was cynical and weak) and a number of Beatles, Beach Boys and Stones records...

It's been a while since I played them, as our turntable died a coule of years ago... so after my schoolwork is done, I'll look for a decent replacement so I can record and archive them digitally (I will have lots to do after I finish my thesis )

Volta