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SonicStage 3.2, Initial Impressions


Ishiyoshi

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Basically what this means (correct me if I'm wrong here) is that we now have the ability to rip CDs to ATRAC, distribute those files however we like (DRM free, since the OMA files are playable/transferrable on any computer), but yet we are not free to import our own recordings and distribute those OMA files DRM free if we desire.

DRM on recordings made on the Hi-MD could be the result of the current generation recorders. They don't apparently have a concept of DRM-less operation. As long as you can upload a recording over and over on different computers without limits who needs a DRM-less OMA on your local system? Just trade MD's biggrin.gif

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I'm not sure I quite understand this, will a minidisc recorded at, say, 256, be playable on all recent MDs player, i.e. all MD LP players, only MDNET players, only players released in the last 60 days ... one of the many things to mourn in the minidisc world is Sony's wanton distruction of their own standard, is this more of the same?

(It's of only academic interest to me since the perfectly wonderful six-disc MD changer in my car, built back in the days before Sony started engineering all MD products with the average lifespan of a disposable razor, mandates my recording everything in SP anyway.

A final question, is this plethora of bit rates accessible when you're using the RealPlayer NETMD plugin or Nero Image writer or do you only get them by allowing Sonic Stage to limit, harass and potentially destroy your music database.

If the latter is the case, I can't imagine why anyone would care -- being stuck with only three bitrates is small price to pay for freedom to burn your music whenever and to as many discs as you want.

BTW, can anyone explain the furor over copying from the mini to a PC. Why does anyone care if you can do it via USB? If you want to do it digitally get a soundcard with an optical in -- you can get good ones for 30-100 bucks these days. Or use analog, it's not really bad.

I've been recording on MDs and copying the files to PCs since MZR-2 days and haven't felt cheated that I can't use USB, firewire, Bluetooth, 811G, 1000Tbase ethernet or other esoteric transfer protocols.

There's plenty to complain -- and, probably, file a class-action lawsuit about -- about in regard to Sonic Stage's inability to handle files coming into the MD (read all the disclaimers in the instruction manual you get after the purchase and compare them to what it says on the sales brochures, box and Sony website and you'll see the basis for the suit) but whining about the reverse direction is kind of over the top.

Just plug the MD into your computer and record your stuff on the hard drive, it's so simple and foolproof even Sony hasn't figured out a way to make it impossible yet. (But they're working on it.)

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compare this to the 'about' in the help tab of sonicstage

SonicStage : 3.2.00.06071

SonicStage Add-on for Personal Audio Upgrade : 3.2.00.06030

OpenMG Secure Module : 4.2.00.06070

MagicGate Memory Stick Device : 4.2.00.06070

NW-E2, NW-E3, NW-E5 and NW-E8P : 4.2.00.06070

OpenMG CD : 4.2.00.06070

M.S. PRO : 4.2.00.06070

CD Walkman : 4.2.00.06070

Hi-MD : 4.2.00.06070

Music Clip, NW-S4, NW-E7 and NW-E10 : 4.2.00.06070

HDWM : 4.2.00.06070

Net MD : 4.2.00.06070

EMD Plug-in: 1.2.0.9

CD-R Writing Module(Audio CD/ATRAC CD/MP3 CD) : 3.2.00.06030

Px Engine: 2.0.60.500

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can someone please post a simple,  clean, and concise list of what has changed/been added/etc between 3.1 and 3.2

1.) Several new datarates for Atrac3Plus (96k, 128k, 160k, 192k & 320k),

when importing a CD or converting a file.

Some of these are already usable on newer HDD-Players.

2.) A recording (Analog/Optical) can be uploaded multiple times to different computers,

but only, if an earlier version doesn't have touched the disc.

3.) DRM can be switched off on CD-Import, making the resulting OMA-file easily transferrable.

4.) LP4@66k & LP2@105k are gone from CD-Import. They are still selectable for transfer to a device.

5.) Only one background graphic available. (Haven't checked 3.1 for that)

6.) Operation feels smoother, more responsive.

That's it in a nutshell...

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BTW, can anyone explain the furor over copying from the mini to a PC. Why does anyone care if you can do it via USB? If you want to do it digitally get a soundcard with an optical in -- you can get good ones for 30-100 bucks these days. Or use analog, it's not really bad.

Just plug the MD into your computer and record your stuff on the hard drive, it's so simple and foolproof even Sony hasn't figured out a way to make it impossible yet. (But they're working on it.)

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Well, other options to get a record to the PC are real time. So if we can have a 'faster than real time' way of getting a record to the PC, with as little constraints as possible (why should we have DRMs on self recorded material ?), that's good news. It took some time for Sony to improve the situation, but they seem to be on the right track ...

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BTW, can anyone explain the furor over copying from the mini to a PC. Why does anyone care if you can do it via USB? ...

I've been recording on MDs and copying the files to PCs since MZR-2 ...

Just plug the MD into your computer and record your stuff on the hard drive, it's so simple and foolproof ...

ekb,

I know!!!, I don't know why we should use those new thing they call PENS, all those colors, so many choice, so much more flexibility and semplicity.

We still, as you, could use the good old chisel and hammer, just hit the chisel, and there you go, a nice letter on stone. Can't really replace it, can we? wacko.gif

It takes 20 years to write something, but hey, we got time don't we? blink.gif

Good luck!!!

Now back to the future....

Cheers

PS: no mean to hurt nobody ph34r.gif

Edited by LupinIV
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Believe it or not, recording through the soundcard is much easier than any USB system, USB tends to be confusing, most of the equipment needed to play or record needs drivers -- such as the ones you had to install when you purchased your NEDMD and installed Sonic Stage ... with analog recording all the drivers are built in into the Windows or MAC OS.

You also don't need to worry about file conversions from ATRAC to a PC-friendly format if you record in analog mode -- you simply save the files to MP3, .wav ... whatever you want.

Perhaps the only advantage USB input would have if it were possible would be to transfer file names from the MD, but how many people really go through the tortous procedure necessary to input names on their MD.

OK, the basic procedure is to plug a cord from the headphone jack of your NetMD into the line input jack on your computer -- the line input jack is one of the miniplug jacks right next to where you plug in your speakers -- it is the same size as the speaker jack -- so if you see different size holes they're for something else like digital or video in/out. (Don't worry, you can't break anything by trying the wrong hole first.)

If your MS model allows you to switch from headphone out to line out, you might want to set it to line out -- which basically means the computer is getting a fixed signal uneffected by the MDs volume control -- but it's not all that critical.

Start any sound editing program from a multi-thousand buck entry like ProTools to the free sound recorders embedded in Windows and OX, set it to record at 44.1k and 16 bits, push the play button on MD and enjoy listening to your disk as it records onto the hard drive -- or go do something else.

When you are done recording, you can edit the file into tracks, name the tracks and save them into whatever format you want.

There are also some very cheap (about $25) programs that will automatically record your music and separate it into tracks by identifying gaps between songs. This is very convenient, particularly when recording old LPs, because it saves editing a huge continuous file into tracks. For my $25 bucks, the best of these programs is called 3D MP3 recorder, it is especially good because it gives you the option of saving each track as an uncompressed wave file or an mp3. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a Mac version, but there are many programs for Mac that do the same thing.

Please feel free to drop me a line at ekb6@runbox.com if any of this is unclear.

BTW, can anyone explain the furor over copying from the mini to a PC. Why does anyone care if you can do it via USB? If you want to do it digitally get a soundcard with an optical in -- you can get good ones for 30-100 bucks these days. Or use analog, it's not really bad.

Just plug the MD into your computer and record your stuff on the hard drive, it's so simple and foolproof even Sony hasn't figured out a way to make it impossible yet. (But they're working on it.)

Note what you say but for beginners like me the whole point was that it was bought on basis of ease of use. I just about understood the instructions for a USB cable. Reading all this stuff about soundcards/analog etc is quite intimidating.

I'm sure you'll say it's not that bad but I'm a musician and not IT literate. I reckon I've already spent sooo much more time trying to work out how to save the recording of my concert than i did rehearsing and performing it...

When you say "..just plug the MD into your computer etc" I'm left thinking where?, with what? etc etc. Reading all the threads and so on is like trying to understand a foreign language half the time - not a criticism of anyone, just the reality of people being at different levels of experience.

Ho hum

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Guys,

I was rereading the thread and it seems like there is some fog around the uploading issue.

It appears that some have problems converting the uploaded oma to wav using 3.2

I have just tryed it and it worked fine on my system. I did the following:

1) recorded 10 secs of music on himd-LP (MZNHF800+microphone)

2) uploaded using Sonicstage 3.2

3) Righclick on the imported oma

4) clicked on "saved in wav format"

5) done.

Could anybody else confirm this?

Cheers

Edited by LupinIV
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Could anybody else confirm this?

I recorded few albums MD to MD (one 256kbps and one PCM) and upladed them to ss3.2. Sonictage asks after both uploads if I want to convert them to wav.

Works like a charm like in 3.1, but now I can delete them afterwards from PC 'cause of infinite uploads.

Edited by L7R
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First of all SS 3.2 installed easily on top of 3.1, no previous uninstall necessary. My Library intact, recognizes the MD unit. I can't believe it.

1) recorded 10 secs of music on himd-LP (MZNHF800+microphone)

2) uploaded using Sonicstage 3.2

3) Righclick on the imported oma

4) clicked on "saved in wav format"

Could anybody else confirm this?

Confirmed: uploaded 17 seconds from a concert, DELETED IT from My Library and from computer, uploaded again and converted to .wav.

Somebody pinch me, has Sony finally listened to its customers?

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For anyone interested, SS 3.2 does not solve the bug which prevents the uploading of files that have been edited on the minidisc. I encourage everyone to try this test. Make a recording from an analog source with auto track marking on. Get at least 3 or 4 tracks. After the recorder has updated the TOC go back and remove a track mark. Let the TOC update again and then try to upload the combined track. There is a good chance you will get the omgbox error. If you don't, try playing the uploaded track in SS. It will hang where the original track mark was, i.e where you combined two tracks into one. If you convert to wav, the conversion will stop at the same point. I reported this problem to Sony over two months ago in multiple phone and e-mail sessions. I haven't heard a peep since.

While you can work around this bug by only editing on the computer, it's just too ironic that you can't use the only recording medium that was designed from the ground up to be easily edited to edit! Until Sony fixes this, I see no rationale for keeping my Hi MD unit other than longer playback time. I'll stick to my JB 980 deck and my Sharp DR7 portable. They actually work, and the quality of the recording from the deck can't be matched with the current crop of Hi MD portables.

TK

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I do this all the time and it has worked perfectly, everytime. I have recorded my old SP recordings to my NH1 (analog) and then edited (divided/combined) them before transferred to SS. I Haven't had any problems you described.

Only thing what irritates me, is when I connect the unit to PC and do titling in sonicstage, I can't divide/combine those (atrac3+) tracks anymore even with unit itself (or sonicstage). That's weird!?

Hope this helps and you can find solution to your problem.

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For anyone interested, SS 3.2 does not solve the bug which prevents the uploading of files that have been edited on the minidisc.  I encourage everyone to try this test.  Make a recording from an analog source with auto track marking on.  Get at least 3 or 4 tracks.  After the recorder has updated the TOC go back and remove a track mark.  Let the TOC update again and then try to upload the combined track.  There is a good chance you will get the omgbox error.  If you don't, try playing the uploaded track in SS.  It will hang where the original track mark was, i.e where you combined two tracks into one.  If you convert to wav, the conversion will stop at the same point.  I reported this problem to Sony over two months ago in multiple phone and e-mail sessions.  I haven't heard a peep since. 

While you can work around this bug by only editing on the computer, it's just too ironic that you can't use the only recording medium that was designed from the ground up to be easily edited to edit!

...

Unfortunately, i can confirm this misbehavior of SS. Sometimes it converts only partially, sometimes it freezes during the upload with combined tracks. Sony, you should work on this. Without editing i had no problems so far.

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I do this all the time and it has worked perfectly, everytime. I have recorded my old SP recordings to my NH1 (analog) and then edited (divided/combined) them before transferred to SS. I Haven't had any problems you described.

Only thing what irritates me, is when I connect the unit to PC and do titling in sonicstage, I can't divide/combine those (atrac3+) tracks anymore even with unit itself (or sonicstage). That's weird!?

Hope this helps and you can find solution to your problem.

I would guess that you did all editing that involved combining tracks in one session. The bug does not crop up if the combine does not involve tracks that were already written to the TOC. I'll bet that if you try the test as I outlined it, you will see the problem. Several people with NH1s have duplicated it already.

TK

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For anyone interested, SS 3.2 does not solve the bug which prevents the uploading of files that have been edited on the minidisc.  I encourage everyone to try this test.  Make a recording from an analog source with auto track marking on.  Get at least 3 or 4 tracks.  After the recorder has updated the TOC go back and remove a track mark.  Let the TOC update again and then try to upload the combined track.  There is a good chance you will get the omgbox error.  If you don't, try playing the uploaded track in SS.  It will hang where the original track mark was, i.e where you combined two tracks into one.  If you convert to wav, the conversion will stop at the same point.  I reported this problem to Sony over two months ago in multiple phone and e-mail sessions.  I haven't heard a peep since. 

While you can work around this bug by only editing on the computer, it's just too ironic that you can't use the only recording medium that was designed from the ground up to be easily edited to edit!  Until Sony fixes this, I see no rationale for keeping my Hi MD unit other than longer playback time.  I'll stick to my JB 980 deck and my Sharp DR7 portable.  They actually work, and the quality of the recording from the deck can't be matched with the current crop of Hi MD portables. 

TK

I was unable to replicate this. I combined two tracks that had been separated due to me hitting the T-mark button by accident, then removed the track mark after recording, and it played just fine. This seems quite random.

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I was unable to replicate this. I combined two tracks that had been separated due to me hitting the T-mark button by accident, then removed the track mark after recording, and it played just fine. This seems quite random.

I encourage you to try what I suggested. The bug involves tracks that have already been written to the TOC, then combined and the TOC updated. Using auto track marking will make sure that you set up the right conditions. Be sure to press stop after putting the tracks down. Then remove a track mark and turn your MD off. Then try the upload. If you don't get bombs it will look like all is well and the whole track appears to be there in SS. If you skip around you will be able to hear the whole track. If you set SS to play before the place where the combine was made and let it play through it will hang. If you convert the track to wave, only the first part will convert. I assure you this is not random. In HI SP or PCM modes you'll probably get bombs with tracks of reasonable size. In, HI LP I often get the track to upload but with the problems noted. This bug will really affect people who do recording sessions and try to splice in sections from different takes.

TK

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I would guess that you did all editing that involved combining tracks in one session. The bug does not crop up if the combine does not involve tracks that were already written to the TOC. I'll bet that if you try the test as I outlined it, you will see the problem. Several people with NH1s have duplicated it already.

I've copied about 60 SP MD's and I can confirm I have combined/divided/deleted some material in all 60 discs (and I use auto track marking). Of couse I've updated TOC many, many times, during this process. All I can say everything's worked flawlessy. At first about 20 albums, I used wav and converted later to HiSP in SS. Now I record straight to HiSP. No difference what so ever. Only little complain is what I've mentioned in my earlier post about titling in SS and how it prevent further editing in unit itself (or SS).

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I encourage you to try what I suggested. 

Appearently this bug is related to the same issues that have been discussed in another thread, if I remember well, by Woodgnome. He managed to have a 1st generation HIMD replaced with a new 2nd generation one. It seems like the 2nd-G himd presents some of the same issues...

It would be great to have some highlights from SONY, but I am not sure they would admit or reveal such information.

This bug may be related to HIMD device hardware and firmware, though, and may not be readyly be addressed by SonicStage updates.

I believe that what is most important now is that with 3.2 you can upload your data "as it is" and use a WAV editor to patch and cut your music, later.

I am quite upset too about these issues, but I guess only firmware patches would help it.

Any other discoveries about the new SS 3.2 version?

Cheers

Edited by LupinIV
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Hi!

My wishlist for SonicStage for the Hi-MD would be to work alongside Windows Media Player and import playlists or "now-playing" lists from WMP if you use it as your music player tool. Perhaps, there could be "hooks" to the ATRAC codecs and Hi-MD functionality so you could work this format with WMP.

As far as MD management is concerned, I would love to see a collection of utilities which allow for:

* defragmentation of Hi-MD or "classic" MD filesystems (this would come in handy if you used a "classic" MD deck's editing functionality a lot and you end up with logical gaps in the disc. This would save batteries for portable units and make previously-impossible "Combine" edits in areas where a lot of editing took place possible.)

* disc-integrity checking in case of file-system errors.

* conversion between "Level 1" (SP / Mono-LP) MD, MDLP and Hi-MD formats. Think of consolidating your MD library to fewer discs or copying out selections from Hi-MD to classic MD for compatibility.

With regards,

Simon Mackay

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So I'm not a huge uploader of my own music anymore (I used to do that on a feverish level with NetMD), but I do have around 80 gigs of music. I used to be a DJ and have around 4,000 CDs FLACed on my machine, so it's all legal smile.gif

With 3.1, when I 'Scan Folders' to get all my music in the Library, about 3 hours would ensue. And then my compilations would be totally out of whack (that's on another thread).

Compilations are still annoyingly and frustratingly out of whack. But Sonicstage 3.2 imported all my music in 16 minutes. Wow.

Overall, Sonicstage seems to be using less system resources (OMGJBOX.EXE often used around 30-40% of my CPU when transferring music to a disc, now uses around 20-25%).

It seems faster (this may just be a perception issue) when transferring to a disc.

In terms of downloading from a disc, I was able to record about 5 minutes of random noise (it rained quite nicely here yesterday, and it sounded good) and transfer it to my library with ease. I then zapped the file, rebooted, and downloaded again with no issues. This brings tears to my eyes. Life was literally horrible for me in the past with the downloading limits. Thank you Sony!

And thank all of you! These forums are very informative and helpful. Good to know that I'm not the only one in the world that wants this NH600 in my hand to do a million things more than it already can.

All I know is, MD all the way.

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man i wish one would know for sure as one of the local electronics chains had a limited sale on the 600 these days. i im partial to getting it but i would love to have native playback of mp3s rather then having to recode everyone of them...

Since I don't care for mp3 and only start from CD source it was a no-brainer for me to buy a (or two) 600 at SEK 495/each...

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This is a long forum and I cant possibly read it all so apologies if this question has been asked before but:

If i download ss 3.2 is it the jap version that is all in japanese? and will it let me connect to sonys european connect because when i downloaded 3.0 from the us site it wudnt let me, i had to redownload 3.1 european version??

thanks

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it is the english version. on my machine it didn't install connect but as i had a previous connect store [us] on there is still comes up. as with most things sonicstage your mileage may vary

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Is it still no go for analog recorded NetMD disks?

We have several MD's either recorded on a JB940 through analogue in or on a N710 using a microphone. None of the recordings have come close to a computer...

Is it impossible to MOVE the recordings from MD-->PC-->HiMD (through USB) , or is it just impossible to COPY them that path (and still have them on the original MD)? Or is this possible in 3.2?

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Well I spoke with Sony again today.  They admit the flaw exists and they have no way to fix it currently or in the near future with the RH10.  Since I need this ability, they've authorized a refund for me.  I'll revisit Hi MD if the next generation solves it.

TK

I too was able to replicate this issue/bug with my RH10 today using the auto tracks, combine, TOC save method. I got the omnjibox.exe error too and then SS couldn't find the Hi-MD until I deleted the tracks manually. Well, lesson learned for me. I rarely combine tracks on the Hi-MD, just divide long tracks I recorded live before I upload. I have found the divide/combine in SS to be fairly useful (if not slow) and consistent. I will remember not the combine any live recordings until I get them in My Library. Thanks for pointing out the bug as I don't plan to return my RH10 or RH910 any time soon. But, I am really enjoying SS 3.2 overall. Baby steps, baby steps...

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Is it still no go for analog recorded NetMD disks?

We have several MD's either recorded on a JB940 through analogue in or on a  N710 using a microphone. None of the recordings have come close to a computer...

Is it impossible to MOVE the recordings from MD-->PC-->HiMD (through USB) , or is it just impossible to COPY them that path (and still have them on the original MD)? Or is this possible in 3.2?

There never will be a way for you to do this via Computer. You must do it manually via an analog or digital connection.

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tommypeters,

I believe there are hardware/filesystem limitations on the NetMD. The actual data may only be accessed by SONY's tools (at least for now).

WinNMD is a software that helps transferring analogicly (???) songs from netMD to PC. It can read the songs title and it saves the songs to mp3. It is REALTIME, but it's the best all-arounder for NetMD

Cheers

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Sony is obviously phasing out the old MD formats. The last thing it wants to do is make them more useful at this late date. When they were the only MD formats available, serious attempts were made to crack them (Google freemd) and make them uploadable, and no one could do it.

What WinNMD does is to use SonicStage to control playback on NetMD units and record each track on the MD as a separate file. You connect the USB to control the unit and the MD headphone out--PC line-in to record. If you have already edited the tracks on the MD, it's very useful, well worth its price. If you haven't edited the tracks, then you don't need WinNMD. You can just record one long track out of the MD with Audacity or other sound-recording software and edit the recording on the PC.

Realtime recording is all you can expect. Sony was always weaselly about the way it presented NetMD, and its salesmen often left people with the impression that recordings could be uploaded, but Sony never implemented anything that would allow digital uploading.

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What I mean is that Sonicstage allows your analog recordings to be uploaded to PC from your Hi-MD (FAT) formatted disk. Not only once, but indefinite. They rightly feel they can do this without creating a Piracy Heaven, but lets users play their own recordings on more than one of their computers - and outside SonicStage.

They could make SonicStage so it allows upload of the music from an original MD, but if they want they could check that a HiMD player is used. What the user then could do is consolidate several old MD's to a Hi-MD disc, possibility to convert to WAV isn't necessary. These old MD's could then be reformatted to 300+MB size.

I can only find two plausible reasons for Sony not allowing this:

1) SonicStage is written so it would be major coding work to add the possibility to upload from a non-FAT formatted minidisc, which they're not going to do.

2) The original MD doesn't write info on how they were recorded, upload to PC were never thought of. SonicStage can't know if the tracks are "safe" to upload or digitally recorded. This would hurt their massive pre-recorded Minidisc sales...

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