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Backup questions for RH1

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I did mainly order a Sony RH1 to be able to back up my old MD recordings...

But in "A Guide To Hi-MD Uploading" http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=6330

that NOT mention RH1 did they write...

"Of extreme importance: The OMA files that SonicStage creates are NOT SUITABLE AS A BACKUP MEDIUM. Many users have fallen prey to this, so READ CAREFULLY: Your current installation of SonicStage has a unique encryption key. If you back up your recordings by copying the files directly from the SonicStage storage folder, THEY WILL NOT BE USABLE FROM ANY OTHER INSTALLATION OF THE PROGRAM. This means if you need to reinstall your OS, or have a hard disc crash, or anything happens that means having to freshly reinstall SonicStage, YOU CAN NEVER READ THOSE FILES AGAIN as they will be encrypted with your old, now non-existent keys.

* If you want to back up your files so they are usable, export as WAV and then do what you will with those files, as they are neither encrypted nor limited by any form of DRM. You can also backup your entire library with the SonicStage backup tool, though for most users this will be less convenient than dealing only with a few WAV files."

This really make me wonder and OBSERVE that the guide above was written almost 2 years ago, long before SonicStage 4.2 and so on...

- So is this still true with RH1??

- Is the WAV way right even if I move old MD recordings to my notebook, to both make backups and convert them to new HiMD SP recordings on 1GB discs????

- And will I not damage the quality if I first convert my tracks to WAV for the backup and then convert back to HiMD SP???

- And what's wrong with SonicStage backup tool???

My first language is not English and that may complicate something I write, sorry!

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Indeed you are right that we need to update that topic. It's on my list of things to do. You may also want to check out this thread for some slightly more up to date info meantime.

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=16088

Thank for the link, but that page did not answer any of my questions... Or the other promising threads I read, sorry!

I might naturally be able to find out, when I get my machine... But it would be a great help, if someone did know the answers and I don't have to do some fatal mistake, on the way!

Merry Christmas and a happy new year, by the way!

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- So is this still true with RH1??
Not necessarily, but it isn't specifically the RH1 (applies to all Hi-MD) as it is the SonicStage software itself.

- Is the WAV way right even if I move old MD recordings to my notebook, to both make backups and convert them to new HiMD SP recordings on 1GB discs????
Following the method described in the thread richyu posted, you will have OMA files without DRM, so you can freely copy them to any computer/storage medium without fear of losing the rights to the tracks (which happens if the DRM is not taken off using the aforementioned method).

- And will I not damage the quality if I first convert my tracks to WAV for the backup and then convert back to HiMD SP???
This won't be any different than going from the original format to Hi-SP. Although with the method posted previously, you will not need to convert to WAV.

- And what's wrong with SonicStage backup tool???
Nothing. It serves its purpose and works if you need to backup/move your entire music library. But for smaller batches and your own uploaded recordings, there are easier ways (plus with the backup tool, the files still have DRM). Edited by raintheory
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Im still a bit confused...

- Is the WAV way right even if I move old MD recordings to my notebook, to both make backups and convert them to new HiMD SP recordings on 1GB discs????

-- Following the method described in the thread richyu posted, you will have OMA files without DRM, so you can freely copy them to any computer/storage medium without fear of losing the rights to the tracks (which happens if the DRM is not taken off using the aforementioned method).

- So I should convert my old tracks directly to HiMD and then save them on my notebook with DRM unshecked, instead of go the extra way over WAV if I understand right? And it's still the same procedure with SS 4.2??

Note that I will NEVER burn music on CD or DVD anyhow... I was first thinking of record from my old JE500 deck optically and directly to HiMD SP on RH1 because I read somewhere that RH1 will copy old tracks with 2 times DRM flags... But I read also that RH1 make worse quality HiMD SP recordings (??) than SS and then can I anyhow not move HiMD tracks to another disc (because I don't have two HiMD machines) without using SS!

- And will I not damage the quality if I first convert my (old MD) tracks to WAV for the backup and then convert back to HiMD SP???

-- This won't be any different than going from the original format to Hi-SP. Although with the method posted previously, you will not need to convert to WAV.

- That's surprising... Many posters mention elsewhere that every convertion lower the quality and if I first convert to WAV will that be one extra convertion... So why don't that reduce the quality??

Hmmm... I should also copy all my old MD to WAV so I can convert that DIRECTLY to the best format for a HD player - if Sony stop producing HiMD machines, before my RH1 eventually dies... So I get 4 backups, my old MD the new HiMD, the OMA files and WAV files!! If there NOT is a way to convert the DRM free OMA files, directly to the best format for a HD player????

- And what's wrong with SonicStage backup tool???

-- Nothing. It serves its purpose and works if you need to backup/move your entire music library. But for smaller batches and your own uploaded recordings, there are easier ways (plus with the backup tool, the files still have DRM).

- That WAS two "wrong things" in my eyes... After my first big transfers (from my old reacordings) will I only back up the latest added tracks... And the backup will (if I understand right) be useless with DRM if the DRM stop me to write back the music, type if the hard drive with the SS program (yes I will save my backup on a external disc) dies!?!

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- Is the WAV way right even if I move old MD recordings to my notebook, to both make backups and convert them to new HiMD SP recordings on 1GB discs????

-- Following the method described in the thread richyu posted, you will have OMA files without DRM, so you can freely copy them to any computer/storage medium without fear of losing the rights to the tracks (which happens if the DRM is not taken off using the aforementioned method).

- So I should convert my old tracks directly to HiMD and then save them on my notebook with DRM unshecked, instead of go the extra way over WAV if I understand right? And it's still the same procedure with SS 4.2??

Depending on the original format of your legacy discs... If they are LP2/LP4 you can use the method in that thread and keep them in their original format (without DRM). If they are SP/MONO you can decide whether or not ypu want them converted to Hi-SP or WAV.

Short answer to you question, yes. If you want to save a fairly large amount of space.

Note that I will NEVER burn music on CD or DVD anyhow... I was first thinking of record from my old JE500 deck optically and directly to HiMD SP on RH1 because I read somewhere that RH1 will copy old tracks with 2 times DRM flags... But I read also that RH1 make worse quality HiMD SP recordings (??) than SS and then can I anyhow not move HiMD tracks to another disc (because I don't have two HiMD machines) without using SS!
I'm not sure I understand your question here, but i know nothing of 2x DRM or anything like that...

- And will I not damage the quality if I first convert my (old MD) tracks to WAV for the backup and then convert back to HiMD SP???

-- This won't be any different than going from the original format to Hi-SP. Although with the method posted previously, you will not need to convert to WAV.

- That's surprising... Many posters mention elsewhere that every convertion lower the quality and if I first convert to WAV will that be one extra convertion... So why don't that reduce the quality??

The conversion to WAV is lossless so going from say LP2>WAV>Hi-SP will in theory have the same quality as LP2>Hi-SP.

Hmmm... I should also copy all my old MD to WAV so I can convert that DIRECTLY to the best format for a HD player - if Sony stop producing HiMD machines, before my RH1 eventually dies... So I get 4 backups, my old MD the new HiMD, the OMA files and WAV files!! If there NOT is a way to convert the DRM free OMA files, directly to the best format for a HD player????
You can use MarC's Hi-MD Renderer program to convert DRM-Free OMA files to a variety of formats: http://www.marcnetsystem.co.uk/

Personally I have a copy of his program stored in the folder I store all of my DRM-free OMA files (my own recordings) on our external HD.

- And what's wrong with SonicStage backup tool???

-- Nothing. It serves its purpose and works if you need to backup/move your entire music library. But for smaller batches and your own uploaded recordings, there are easier ways (plus with the backup tool, the files still have DRM).

- That WAS two "wrong things" in my eyes... After my first big transfers (from my old reacordings) will I only back up the latest added tracks... And the backup will (if I understand right) be useless with DRM if the DRM stop me to write back the music, type if the hard drive with the SS program (yes I will save my backup on a external disc) dies!?!

I haven't ever really used the backup tool, so I am not entirely sure. Perhaps someone else with experience knows the answer here.

Hope this helps some!

Edited by raintheory
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With your old recordings, you should upload them, convert them to .wav, and store them. That removes DRM. You can also store them as .oma files without DRM (after converting with DRM removed) if you prefer. It's a fairly simple procedure. Most of the restrictions you are reading about have been removed by recent versions of SonicStage.

The Backup Tool backs up the entire Library so that you have an emergency copy if you have serious computer troubles. It gives you a collection of .oma files, which are still only playable on your computer or an ATRAC device, and .mp3 files. It takes a long time, and it's not for single file conversion. But if you save the backup on a hard drive, you should be able to restore it to a new computer and SonicStage installation if your computer dies. It does this through some sort of online verification. I keep a backup, but I frankly hope I never have to rely on it.

Just to emphasize what raintheory pointed out. There are two kinds of conversions: lossless and lossy. A lossless conversion--to .wav, .flac and some other formats--keeps all the information that was in the converted file. There is no quality loss, no matter how many LOSSLESS conversions you do.

But most of the formats that people use for portable music are lossy: .mp3, .ogg, .wma, ATRAC. Each of those takes the original information and throws some away to shrink the file. They all make different choices about what to throw away, and some of them (like high-bitrate .mp3 or .ogg) are virtually impossible to distinguish from the original file. But each conversion preserves less information, so the more LOSSY conversions you do, the worse the quality gets.

Edited by A440
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I see that I didn't explain why I use the MiniDisc system...

1) I almost never use my portable machine mobile and when I do is it with just one or two discs, so I don't really need to store more than 74 minutes on each disc...

2) Then don't I want to loose any sound quality from my original material (CD or vinyl) and I got that level of exact copies, from the 3 generation of Atrac... Type I could not hear any difference in a direct AB test, with my extremely analytic speakers... But I don't remember if I did use headphones?!

3) And I never download stolen music or want to buy music of worse than CD quality...

x) But it would anyhow be very convenient if I could reduce my 62 old MD discs to 10 HiMD SP discs - if I really don't loose any quality OR at max can hear a slight difference on some critical music, as long the difference not is annoying in any way!!

Your answers did help a bit, raintheory ;-)

Now must I first test extra carefully if HiMD SP is good enough... If not, must I save my old recordings as Wav... That would be a BIG problem, because I read somewhere that Wav need 10x more space and I don't like to loose 80gb for my music backup, especially not when I only have 20gb free... But I can maybe copy the WAV files to HiMD disc as Atrac3plus 352kbps IF that sound good enough and then save the Atrac3plus 352kbps files on my separate hard drive... Otherwise will I continue to record on my deck (in Atrac type-R quality) and only use my new RH1 to make backups of my old legacy recording, plus when I want to play my MD discs portable and make pcm recordings!!

So if I can't make a safe backup with HiMD SP or 352kbps files, that then MUST sound as good as old generation 3 Atrac, must I also buy a bigger portable hard drive... Or maybe buy 65 MD cheaper and copy my old discs digitally from RH1 to my deck, if the 2 times DRM not longer stop that!?! But that alternative lock me in, if my decks and RH1 die...

Comments to some of your nice answers...

- So I should convert my old tracks directly to HiMD and then save them on my notebook with DRM unchecked, instead of go the extra way over WAV if I understand right? And it's still the same procedure with SS 4.2??

-- Depending on the original format of your legacy discs... If they are LP2/LP4 you can use the method in that thread and keep them in their original format (without DRM). If they are SP/MONO you can decide whether or not ypu want them converted to Hi-SP or WAV. Short answer to you question, yes. If you want to save a fairly large amount of space.

- I would never dream of using LP2 and I don't want to save more space than my generation 4 Atrac SP already does, as I tried to explain above...

- Note that I will NEVER burn music on CD or DVD anyhow... I was first thinking of record from my old JE500 deck optically and directly to HiMD SP on RH1 because I read somewhere that RH1 will copy old tracks with 2 times DRM flags... But I read also that RH1 make worse quality HiMD SP recordings (??) than SS and then can I anyhow not move HiMD tracks to another disc (because I don't have two HiMD machines) without using SS!

-- I'm not sure I understand your question here, but i know nothing of 2x DRM or anything like that...

- You could copy legacy SP digitally one time, but not two times... But if you then wanted to move that track to another disc OR make a backup on a second disc, was that not possible... But now can I hopefully use my RH1 to copy legacy SP recordings digitally to my deck (if HiMD SP or 352kbps not is good enough) when I want to move tracks that happen to be recorded on wrong disc, so I only have to use my notebook when I do backups...

-- The conversion to WAV is lossless so going from say LP2>WAV>Hi-SP will in theory have the same quality as LP2>Hi-SP.

- That was interesting, even if I only would use it to save legacy SP recordings!

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