Jump to content

Digital transfer of old Net-MD recordings

Rate this topic


digitaka

Recommended Posts

I have lots of MD discs with my own recordings (mic/line input) done with my Sony MZ-NF810 Net-MD recorder and (like so many others) would like to have them transferred to my computer.

I know the usual answer to my dilemma is to re-record audio on the computer from the MD player's line out (in real time), but life's too short for that (besides, what's the point with a digital recorder if my recordings have to go through yet another A/D and D/A stage? I might as well have used an analog cassette recorder then).

I'm hoping there's a solution, but I need help in clearing up all the confusion:

1) I've heard that there's a specific version of the Sonic Stage software (version 3.4?) that will allow me to "upload" any recording done with the mic or line input.

Is this correct, and will I then be able to transfer my recordings as files, digitally, via the USB port on my MZ-NF810?

2) Having read through several postings in this forum it seems that digital file transfers from an MD recorder to a computer only works with a Sony Hi-MD device, not just any MD recorder.

If this is correct, can I transfer the contents of my MD discs using a Sony MZ-RH1?

Could I also use any other Hi-MD unit for this? (it'll only be used in order to transfer my previous recorded MD discs, so I don't want to spend money unnecessarily).

3) To complicate things even further I'm using a Mac, not a PC running Windows, which of course rules out Sonic Stage.

I can of course borrow a PC from someone in order to complete this task, but it would be easier if Mac compatible software could be used. I know that the Sony MZ-RH1 comes with Mac software, but I suppose it only works for that particular model?

I've also heard that there's some open-source software out there, but I'm not sure if any of it will help me with my transfer issue.

Can someone please help me clear up the confusion and hopefully help me find a way to easily transfer all my MD recordings over to a computer, preserving the quality and doing it quickly (doing real-time recordings of my MD player would probably take months to do).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Others will answer but simple summary:

1. You can't upload NetMD to Mac, only HiMD. You need SonicStage.

2. You MUST use the RH1, no other unit will do. (you can, as I used to, upload via optical cable and record as WAV, and at least this avoids another D->A and A->D stage, at x1 of course, using an MD deck)

Hope this helps

Stephen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is confusing, and confining.

But in the end, it's simple.

Your only method to digitally transfer recordings from old MDs (pre Hi-MD) is with the MZ-RH1 or MZ-M200 (same unit packaged with a microphone) via SonicStage. You need that particular hardware and software combination. No way around it. SonicStage 3.x and 4.x are made to upload recordings made on Hi-MD recorders, not your NetMD, until you get the hardware that can upload older recordings: the MZ-RH1.

So you need to decide whether uploading your NetMD recordings is worth the $300-$350 it costs for the MZ-RH1 or MZ-M200. And if it is, you need to commandeer someone's Windows computer for what's definitely going to take a while.

When you upload, you can have the uploads converted immediately to .wav by SonicStage, or you can selectively convert later. Probably you'll want an outboard hard drive, because those files are going to be huge.

After you have uploaded, run the File Conversion Tool in SonicStage with copy protection Un-checked. Please, do it right after you upload. This will make the uploaded files playable by any computer running SonicStage. Otherwise they are locked to your computer unless they are converted to .wav (as above) or .mp3 (see below).

Once uploaded, you can also use Hi-MD Renderer to convert the files to .mp3, which takes less space.

http://marcnetsystem.co.uk/

There is software called Music Transfer for the Mac. But it only uploads (MD-->computer) files that were recorded in the Hi-MD formats (PCM, Hi-SP, Hi-LP, not the SP, LP2 or LP4 from your NF810. Only the MZ-RH1 /MZ-M200 with SonicStage will do that.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-download.pl?upd_id=2236&PASSVAL2=SMB&mdl=MZM100

And get SonicStage 4.3 from support.sony.com--or search this forum for Avrin's Ultimate SonicStage 4.3--for the least complicated transfers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in the end it looks like I will have to invest in an MZ-RH1/MZ-M200 :sad:

I was considering getting a new recorder anyway, so I no longer would have to waste my time doing realtime analog transfers, but leaning towards a solid state flash based recorder (no moving parts, no stupid copy protection issues etc.).

Won't any Hi-MD recorder do, just the MZ-RH1/MZ-M200?

Older Hi-MD models will probably go for cheaper on the 2nd hand market, which is why I ask.

Regarding software: I downloaded and installed Hi-MD music transfer 2.0 for Mac, but is my understanding correct that in order to transfer old MD recordings (e.g. my NF810 Net-MD recordings, mostly done in LP2 and SP modes as far as I remember) only SonicStage 4.3 will allow for this?

But Hi-MD recordings (done with any Hi-MD recorder) can easily be transferred using the Mac software?

When you upload, you can have the uploads converted immediately to .wav by SonicStage, or you can selectively convert later. Probably you'll want an outboard hard drive, because those files are going to be huge.

Yes, I have an external Mac/Windows formatted USB and Firewire hard drive, so dumping over the WAV files there will be no problem.

After you have uploaded, run the File Conversion Tool in SonicStage with copy protection Un-checked. Please, do it right after you upload. This will make the uploaded files playable by any computer running SonicStage. Otherwise they are locked to your computer unless they are converted to .wav (as above) or .mp3 (see below).

Once uploaded, you can also use Hi-MD Renderer to convert the files to .mp3, which takes less space.

I don't quite understand.

I want my transferred files playable by any computer, not just computers running SonicStage.

Isn't it just a matter of doing the first stage ("uploading" my old recordings from the MZ-RH1/MZ-M200 with the help of SonicStage 4.3, which then saves those recordings (in a proprietary format I guess) as WAV files on the PC)?

I already have audio conversion/editing software on my Mac, so I can edit those WAV files any time later, convert them to MP3 etc.

By the way, won't converting the transferred audio (ATRAC) into yet another compressed format (MP3) worsen the quality, while converting the ATRAC audio into WAV will preserve everything in the original recording.

I was thinking that after I've transferred all my MD discs' contents over to my external hard drive (via the PC running SonicStage) I'll burn the WAV files to DVDs for safekeeping. From then on I can dig out each WAV file individually, edit whatever is needed, then choose to further save the edited material as MP3, WAV, AIFF etc. (whichever I find retains the quality the best without taking up too much space.

And get SonicStage 4.3 from support.sony.com--or search this forum for Avrin's Ultimate SonicStage 4.3--for the least complicated transfers.

I found Avrin's Ultimate SonicStage 4.3 here (in case other readers are interested), and also downloaded the original SonicStage from the link you posted above.

Now, I'm no Windows/PC expert, but after reading other postings my understanding is that the installer for SonicStage is very problematic/confusing, so Avrin has made a new installer?I just hope I don't need to mess around with the registry or some other "hacking" type of activity in Windows in order to get this done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2. You MUST use the RH1, no other unit will do. (you can, as I used to, upload via optical cable and record as WAV, and at least this avoids another D->A and A->D stage, at x1 of course, using an MD deck)

Yes, that's a better idea than re-recording it analog, but it's the time for this that I don't have (given that everything has to be transferred in real time).

I just want to quickly dump over my recordings as you do with any modern MP3 player, digital camera etc. (I assume this is how it's done with the MZ-RH1/SonicStage).

Unfortunately my MD-recorder doesn't have any optical output (although there's an optical line input which I've never used), which is probably why you suggest I buy a stationary MD deck if I want to go this route.

But I did come across this discussion thread which explains how to make your own optical output for portable MD recorders in case someone else reading this is interested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for all my questions, but having read other postings in this forum I came across "The essential Hi-MD info/FAQ" where it says (read especially what I've colored in red):

Limitations:

Uploading is applicable ONLY to tracks recorded on Hi-MD via Mic-In, Line-in, or optical in to Hi-MD formats: PCM, Hi-SP or Hi-LP

Hence, if you have MD / MDLP / NetMD recordings (SP, LP2, LP4), they can NOT be uploaded, even if you have a Hi-MD player

SonicStage is a Windows-only program -- no Mac, Linux, etc. - though newer pro models such as the MZ-M100 [a slightly modified and renamed RH-10] can upload PCM tracks to Macintosh computers using dedicated Mac software.

I'm utterly confused now! :unsure:

So can or can't "old" (Net-MD) recordings be digitally transferred (i.e. not in real time, but simply dumped over to the computer as audio files)?

I'm certainly not going to invest in an MZ-RH1 if it can't do that after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oops, you're quite right :blush:

So I guess that also answers one of my own questions: that Hi-MD units other than the MZ-RH1 can't upload Net-MD recordings to the computer (but I suppose they can still digitally upload Hi-MD recordings done with the same Hi-MD recorder even if it's not an MZ-RH1).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oops, you're quite right :blush:

So I guess that also answers one of my own questions: that Hi-MD units other than the MZ-RH1 can't upload Net-MD recordings to the computer (but I suppose they can still digitally upload Hi-MD recordings done with the same Hi-MD recorder even if it's not an MZ-RH1).

I'm not 100% sure that the latter restriction is true. It's not something I care about, but I did try it one day, and I think I was able to upload something. The trick is to make sure it's been decrypted first... then it won't have anything of the computer from which it was downloaded at all.

"Decryption" meaning running the OMA File Conversion Tool (not converting to MP3) and UNchecking the box marked :Add Copy Protection:

Hope this helps

Stephen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, yes it helps :)

The big question now is if I should spend 300 bucks or not on a MZ-RH1.

I've read about optical transfers, being another "lossless" and digital method, although in realtime, so I've dismissed it because of the time it takes, but perhaps I should reconsider as the cost of a 2nd hand MD deck (with optical output) will be much less.

Does anyone here have any experience with such transfers?

(My Mac has optical audio inputs, and I have several audio applications for recording. My only concern is which setting my input level should have as my recordings have very varying levels, being environmetal sounds for the most part, unless optical audio will be like a "data stream" where there's no input level to be concerned about).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be truthful, optical transfer is NOT lossless. But it's a lot better than the alternatives. Only a few of the transfers via USB are lossless, namely if you don't convert the .oma file in any way. I ran into trouble that CD->MD turned out crap, not because of the transfer to MD but because of the initial ripping from CD!!!!!

The major pain about MD decks is that SP disks hold only 80 minutes. If this is ok for you, go for it. However MDLP decks (most have Type-R) will record LP2 quite nicely, and this is what I rely on for most recordings off the internet (since they are rarely at higher bit rate than 128k).

If you want to "save" your recordings (frankly they will last longer on MD than on either CD or HD) then you really don't have a choice except MZ-RH1 (MZ-M200). However if any of them were transfers via USB to the MD, then optical out from the deck is the ONLY way to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you may have misunderstood my use for the MD. I haven't done any CD, MP3 or other music transfers to MDs, but made my own analog recordings (speech, environmental sounds etc.) which I need to edit and use on my computer.

The only use I will have for an MD deck (if I decide to go that route) is the optical out as I assume it will give a much better result than re-recording analog. I don't care about its recording features and will probably sell it once I've transferred all of my MD discs' contents over to my computer.

But it occured to me that not all MD decks might be compatible with my recordings... (?)

As far as I recall, most of my MDs (on the MZ-NF810) are recorded in LP2 mode, and some in SP recorded mostly in LP2 mode, all using the mic/line input.

The deck I've seen for sale is a Sony MDS-JE510. I downloaded its manual, but I see no mention of MDLP (MD Long Play), so perhaps it won't be able to play my MZ-NF810 recorded discs on it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly if you have no pc->md downloaded tracks, then the MZ-RH1 can upload everything. But a deck is so much nicer for editing and titling before upload.

You can assemble a list of MDLP-capable decks from the equipment browser.

My short list would look like this

MDS-JE640

MDS-JB940

MDS-JB980

MXD-D400

and I dare say there are others.

On top of that you're going to need a card on the PC that accepts optical input. A good one is Terratec. There might be an optical->USB dongle available, don't know, don't have one.

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My only concern is which setting my input level should have as my recordings have very varying levels, being environmetal sounds for the most part, unless optical audio will be like a "data stream" where there's no input level to be concerned about).

It is always a good idea to keep the original recording level. Changing the level of a digital signal (be it a CD or an MD) by an arbitrary value always leads to rounding errors and the accompanying distortion. Only if the original recording it really too quiet, you may double its level using some good program (e.g., Adobe Audition) without adding any distortion. But the change must be exactly 200% (not +6 dB), so as not to introduce any rounding errors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But I did come across this discussion thread which explains how to make your own optical output for portable MD recorders in case someone else reading this is interested.

Ah, this thread happened before I got serious about MD. Thank YOU!

Has anyone actually tried this? As Oz says, it really looks like a HiMD deck with opti-out might be worth having. That, or a HiMD portable (not the RH1, but somethibng less valuable) hooked up to digi-in on my receiver to simply PLAY BACK HiMD recordings through the stereo system.

Happy New Year

Stephen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The idea is simple. Only 16 bits are used to encode sound. And, out of these, even less are dedicated to low-level signals (say, 2 or 3 for really low-level stuff, and some 10-12 for louder). And if a signal is processed in any way, the results are rounded to the nearest whole bit, and this may seriously distort low-level components, which may actually be encoded by only 2 or 3 bits.

Professional sound processing is done in 24 or 32 bits, and the final result is then converted to 16 bits using dithering and noise shaping algorithms, which, although they still add noise and distortion, make it sound "natural" and less irritating.

But the 200% gain transformation, even when done in 16 bits, does not lead to rounding errors, since increasing the level 2 times is equal to shifting the signal by 1 whole bit - thus no rounding errors are introduced. You only need to check that the louder signals do not get clipped during the process (this never happens if the maximum peak of the initial signal is at or below the 50% level).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a couple of graphical illustrations. The first is a generated pure sinewave at the -68 dB level:

247a5b078786t.jpg

It is already not very pleasant to look at, since only few bits are used to encode it, thus its shape is far from perfect.

Now we add a 110% gain to it:

8b8c841dd306t.jpg

As you see, the result actually looks (and sounds, believe me) much worse because of rounding errors.

Edited by Avrin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the change must be exactly 200% (not +6 dB), so as not to introduce any rounding errors.

Good morning, Avrin. What on earth do you mean? By definition, +6dB is exactly double. If you double something its output will be exactly 6dB higher.

Perhaps you are referring to the means for doubling?

I recall something of the sort when preparing JPG's for the Web.... its ok to divide by 2, or even 4 but don't try 3 :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of sound engineers fell prey to this delusion, and many good records are irreversibly damaged.

+6 dB roughly equals 1.9952623149688796013524553967395 times, while 2 times roughly equals +6.0205999132796239042747778944899 dB.

As you see, this delusion introduces a lot of rouding errors.

Edited by Avrin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes. But don't forget about headroom. If the maximum peak level is below 50% - go ahead, but if it is seriously above 50%, leave the signal as is. Doubling the level does not actually increase quality, it only brings the signal on par with other louder recordings. Surely, if just a couple of peaks will get clipped, then this is also probably worth the effort (just don't forget to process the clipped peaks with hard limiting to make them look nicer - possible rounding errors for the maximum signal are negligible).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually I only ever used it to do exactly as you describe, unless I wanted to "fix the level" of some sounds, or fade-in/out. If peak is > 50% generally it seems ok to leave it.

However I would point out that I think the "puristic" approach is more important when the original sound is (already) compressed. With PCM recordings there is probably lots of data (x5 compared to SP?) which can be jerked around a fair amount if you want to clean it up, for example removing noise by FFT. These manipulations will still be of a greater effect than your rounding errors, and ultimately neither will be that noticeable (of course one would always check after every step!)

So that's why I recommend always using PCM for live recording - if you want to fix the levels you have got lots of "headroom".

Conversely a canned signal nicely "levelled" by a broadcaster, can be recorded at lower data rates and still getting a very nice sound (eg LP2) because you do NOT have to do any messing around with digital rounding - rather record at the highest (constant) level, knowing that the source will not have unexpected peak passages in it.

Thanks for the insight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any manipulation with digital signal (including EQ, FFT, declicking and noise reduction) introduces rounding errors. If you still want to do this, first convert the signal to 32-bit in Audition, then process it the way you want, and convert the final version to 16-bit, using proper noise-shaping and dithering. This way rounding errors do not accumulate after each processing step, and the result will be much better.

And never trust the internal dithering and noise-shaping algorithms used by Audition when processing 16-bit signals. Noone knows what these are, and it is always better to do everything in 32-bit, and use proper noise-shaping and dithering algorithms for the 32/16 conversion at the very last stage only, so possible errors do not accumulate.

My approach to the 32/16 conversion:

6facd7fff6aat.jpg

And don't forget that even PCM contains very little data for low-level signals in 16 bit format (lossy formats simply dump these), and these should be preserved to the fullest extent possible. It is the properly preserved low-level signals that make your recording sound really natural.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you guys discussing input levels of the MD recorder when recording?

I was actually wondering about how I should go about setting the input level in the computer's software if doing an optical recording from an MD recorder as many of my environmental recordings vary a lot in audio levels. With music it would be easy to check the average level, so that would be easier.

Or.... isn't there any level adjustments involved when recording optically (unlike an analog recording session on a computer) as it's really just a stream of data?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Limiting only seems necessary when using Analog because of the inherent distortion. You can (and probably should?) safely set the volume on your PC optical input to 100%.

There's no ability to "amplify" on any of the decks, I think, for output. However a number of decks will happily amplify the incoming optical sound (optical gain). Since this comes before the Type-R ("intelligent bit reallocation") processing as the MD is recorded, I fancy that this improves the dynamic range of what you record from an optical source. I have, to be honest, not noticed any of the distortions noted by Avrin, though I understand perfectly his point, and the theory behind it - at least I think I do.

I'm actively looking for a friend to help me with the HiMD output mod. I have someone in mind here, but encouragement from others online would be great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The idea is simple. Only 16 bits are used to encode sound. And, out of these, even less are dedicated to low-level signals (say, 2 or 3 for really low-level stuff, and some 10-12 for louder). And if a signal is processed in any way, the results are rounded to the nearest whole bit, and this may seriously distort low-level components, which may actually be encoded by only 2 or 3 bits.

Professional sound processing is done in 24 or 32 bits, and the final result is then converted to 16 bits using dithering and noise shaping algorithms, which, although they still add noise and distortion, make it sound "natural" and less irritating.

But the 200% gain transformation, even when done in 16 bits, does not lead to rounding errors, since increasing the level 2 times is equal to shifting the signal by 1 whole bit - thus no rounding errors are introduced. You only need to check that the louder signals do not get clipped during the process (this never happens if the maximum peak of the initial signal is at or below the 50% level).

That's interesting. Really.

So your advice is to process a signal only at 24 or32 bit, even if the 'original' file is in standard 16 bit.

And for live recording? Sometimes I use PCM, but i usually go for Hi-SP as I hear almost no difference (if only my NH900 could 'finish' the disc quickier I'd go for PCM, but I won't miss 1 minute or so of music).. I never do any kind of EQ, I just do the normalize thing, which is max. amplitude at -0.3 dB and remove any DC offset.

Am I wrong?

And what about levels? I usually run as hot as I can.. someone say to do it, someone other suggest to run at -12db and to raise thevolume later with the PC (perhpas I can do this only if the original file is in 24 bit)..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

sfbp- is the MZ-RH1 still the cheapest way to transfer MD to WAV via computer? Do you know of any people that would offer this service if I sent them the MDs?

Thanks in advance

If you want to "save" your recordings (frankly they will last longer on MD than on either CD or HD) then you really don't have a choice except MZ-RH1 (MZ-M200). However if any of them were transfers via USB to the MD, then optical out from the deck is the ONLY way to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never talked about price :)

If you absolutely have to have a recording "rescued" from MD, the issue is "how can I do it?" which I think is adequately covered in this thread.

As you can see, it depends on how it got onto MD in the first place, and exactly what kind of MD.

Anyone here with an RH1 would probably help you if it's just a couple of disks. If you have hundreds of them then you will need to buy one. However that's all secondary to how the tracks were created.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...