Sony MZ-RH1: Need advice on transferproject

[popmarter]

Hello,

I would like to transfer my old md's (mono, lp2, stereo, about 100) in the best possible way to preserve them for the future. This has to be done once, in the best possible way. The recordings are liveshows.

I bought a Sony MZ-RH1 for this purpose and installed the following drivers and SS.

Win 7 & 8 64-bit Driver: http://proudofmylife.net/md/sony-net-...
Sonic Stage 4.3: http://proudofmylife.net/md/ss43.zip

Installed it last night and it all seems to work.

Few questions:

1.

I tried one MD and noticed a problem. Most discs have trackmarks. In SS I can select all tracks and transfer them seperatly, but I would like to have only one file (preferrably before I do the transfer.)

What is the best thing to do right now? I own a standalone deck too, btw.

- Remove all marks with the standalone deck by hand?

- Transfer all and combine stuff later? (if so, is SS good enough or is Wavelab, for example better?), i want it seamsless (ofcourse), without losing one bit.

2.

The goal is to have the recordings on harddrive just as they are on the minidisc (for the archive). So, in its original atrac format. Besides that I want a working/listen version of the recording (in FLAC). SS gives my the opportunity to convert the orginal to WAV. Is there a reason to let SS do the conversion (after the transfer) in favour of a program like Wavlab? Or would it even better to convert from the original to FLAC directly? Any suggestion on this part?

This forum has helped me a lot with information before in this transferproject, but some advice at this point would be nice.

Grts,

Popmarter

[sfbp]

Great and concise series of questions. Welcome!

1. I would go out and get a copy of Sound Forge 9 or Movie Studio HD Platinum 10 (which contains SF10). You will have to pay something for this (unless you buy a device such as a flash recorder which happens to give a free copy, and there are many such devices), but not much - probably around $50. It's a licensed product, and you will not regret getting it.

2. THE ONLY ONE of the formats that you list that gets transferred completely unchanged to Hard Disk is LP2 (LP4 is fine too, but you don't mention it). Odd? But true.

3. For best quality arrange to have SS transfer to HiSP (256k HiMD Atrac3+) rather than WAV. The latter is possible, but if you have SF9(?or 10), since it supports ATRAC in all flavours, then you can edit directly the OMA files. Also you get a 256k (compressed) 24-bit file, whereas you can only get a 16-bit WAV file. Ignore all the nonsense about ATRAC lossy-ness - for your purpose you can can transfer/convert and edit just fine without messing up the sounds. Note that taking WAV upload, and then converting to ATRAC Advanced Lossless 256k works fine, but will sound just the same as HiSP 256k - and I think you actually lose more bits (though I cannot prove it) when you upload to WAV.

4. You will need to learn how to decrypt the files with the Sonic Stage File Conversion Tool, which should be run from within SS, rather than as its own application (don't ask!).

Otherwise:

a. you cannot edit them, and

b. your files are locked to this PC for ever and you may have trouble with future upgrades or re-install of Windows.

Note that Windows Media Player (after a couple of tweaks for file type support) will play the files even when encrypted - this does NOT mean that you have decrypted them - it too will stop working if the System Information changes.

5. In terms of editing, you can join all together and split with SF, later. Note that anything you do to edit files, they will need to be removed from Sonic Stage data base and re-added after any change of data - otherwise they don't play. Logical, huh? OR, you can add the data from the MD side (drawback - no Artist and other metadata possible).

6. If you plan to make archive copies on CD, recommend you number the (final) tracks yourself exactly like this "001-<blah>.OMA", <002-<blah>.OMA" and so on. There are no groups in the PC world, however SS will take (first choice GROUP, second choice when no groups DISK TITLE) and make a folder in the "imported sound" destination.

7. Recommend you fix SS to import to somewhere NOT under your User file tree. Make a separate destination such as C:ATRACfil, so you are not limited by the length of the path name when you transfer any tracks with long long names from MD. Also means you can share files on your own network for play, when you have properly decrypted them ( see #4 above) without getting messed up by Windows ACL restrictions, if you understand me.

8. The handiest way to edit track data on the MD side is undoubtedly M-Crew. However you may have to find an old XP PC, or at least a 32-bit copy of Windows 7 (XP 32-bit box is possible but a bit iffy). Not to mention needing special hardware (PCLK-MN10 or 20)unless you can get your hands on the amazing CMT-series models that use only USB to communicate with the computer - but will still need 32-bit Windows. Of course you can with many decks use a PS/2 (not playstation, but the IBM designation PersonalSystem/2) keyboard. What deck do you have already?

9. NOTE that if you leave track names completely blank before upload:

a. SS will put ridiculous names that involve the upload time, not the creation date

b. SS is very bad about deleting blank tracks, and will probably ruin your MDs owing to a bug if you try to delete more than 1 at a time, ever!!!!!!

10. Your plan of uploading one disk as one track is a good one if you plan to do major manipulation of the sound (eg de-crackling an LP using SF's built in tools). But if not, your sanity will be protected by leaving in the track marks. However you will still need to decrypt, remove from SS, combine and re-add if you plan any editing - so you may prefer to do the labelling before upload.

11. As to FLAC, SF9 does not support it, but I have a feeling that SF10 does. Something for me to try soon.

12. Final piece of advice - save the RH1 for uploading, don't use as a player or for editing.

Hope this helps

Stephen

[trott3r]

What is the decrypt tool?

Is that an addin?

Doesnt the rh1 only do 16bit uploading?

(to my annoyance) when transferring 24bit 555es analog vinyl recordings in SP format.

Martin

[sfbp]

File Conversion Tool (part of every SS install).

HiSP is a 24-bit format. It's the other choice for uploading.

[popmarter]

Hi Stephen, thanks a lot for the reply. Bit scary too, as I thought transfers would be lot easier.

I have not been able to work further, but there are certainly a few things to sort out before I start. Maybe you are willing to guide me a bit more.

1. I would go out and get a copy of Sound Forge 9 or Movie Studio HD Platinum 10 (which contains SF10). You will have to pay something for this (unless you buy a device such as a flash recorder which happens to give a free copy, and there are many such devices), but not much - probably around $50. It's a licensed product, and you will not regret getting it.

I will consider this, if I need it. Currently I am using Wavelab, not sure if that can handle Atract aswell, have not checked yet.

2. THE ONLY ONE of the formats that you list that gets transferred completely unchanged to Hard Disk is LP2 (LP4 is fine too, but you don't mention it). Odd? But true.

My first recordings (year 2000) are in standard MD format (can’t remember how to call that), LP2 later and some mono’s. I read the mono’s are transferred as stereo files? (two channels mono?).

3. For best quality arrange to have SS transfer to HiSP (256k HiMD Atrac3+) rather than WAV. The latter is possible, but if you have SF9(?or 10), since it supports ATRAC in all flavours, then you can edit directly the OMA files. Also you get a 256k (compressed) 24-bit file, whereas you can only get a 16-bit WAV file. Ignore all the nonsense about ATRAC lossy-ness - for your purpose you can can transfer/convert and edit just fine without messing up the sounds. Note that taking WAV upload, and then converting to ATRAC Advanced Lossless 256k works fine, but will sound just the same as HiSP 256k - and I think you actually lose more bits (though I cannot prove it) when you upload to WAV.
Alright, if I get it right this is were Soundforge comes in. In other words, if my Wavelab is not supporting ATRAC in the way SF does, I have to get SF? Ok this I have to check.

From my first attempt with SF I did notice I have 2 options to transfer Netmd or HiSP? Have to check this too.

4. You will need to learn how to decrypt the files with the Sonic Stage File Conversion Tool, which should be run from within SS, rather than as its own application (don't ask!).

Otherwise:

a. you cannot edit them, and

b. your files are locked to this PC for ever and you may have trouble with future upgrades or re-install of Windows.

Note that Windows Media Player (after a couple of tweaks for file type support) will play the files even when encrypted - this does NOT mean that you have decrypted them - it too will stop working if the System Information changes.

This bit scares me and is not very clear too. Do I have to decrypt the files too, even if I work directly with them in SoundForge?

I am right that the raw files I get from the MD with SS are so called .OMA-files? If .OMA files is the raw stuff, then I would like to:

- Save all my OMA files nicely sorted in directories on a hard disc. That disc gets a backup (or maybe even 2). It will remain there for life and I probably won’t touch it again in the near future, but I do want be able to edit (or convert first and than edit). But I don’t want them to be restricted or be forced to keep the original harddisc where I put the files first or whatever. Is this possible?

- If this is not possible, I am forced to convert the raw files with the file conversion tool? And than what, save them as .wav? Is it decrypted than? (in other word, I can handle them just like any other .wav file?)

5. In terms of editing, you can join all together and split with SF, later. Note that anything you do to edit files, they will need to be removed from Sonic Stage data base and re-added after any change of data - otherwise they don't play. Logical, huh? OR, you can add the data from the MD side (drawback - no Artist and other metadata possible).
I think/feel the best way to avoid any problems is just do the transfer (with marks) and do the joining part later. I can live with that. This just means I have several files form one concert in one directory (see point 4).

6. If you plan to make archive copies on CD, recommend you number the (final) tracks yourself exactly like this "001-<blah>.OMA", <002-<blah>.OMA" and so on. There are no groups in the PC world, however SS will take (first choice GROUP, second choice when no groups DISK TITLE) and make a folder in the "imported sound" destination.

This part I do no understand very well. I have no intention to save to cdr, just harddisc. My idea was to make a directory-structure like this:

Artist > City + Date. (U2 – London 1.1.2000) and put all (.oma?) files in there. I do like to rename them in Windows Explorer in something like 001.oma, 002.oma. Is this possible?

7. Recommend you fix SS to import to somewhere NOT under your User file tree. Make a separate destination such as C:ATRACfil, so you are not limited by the length of the path name when you transfer any tracks with long long names from MD. Also means you can share files on your own network for play, when you have properly decrypted them ( see #4 above) without getting messed up by Windows ACL restrictions, if you understand me.
Avoid long filenames (and find stuff back easy), got it, thanks!

8. The handiest way to edit track data on the MD side is undoubtedly M-Crew. However you may have to find an old XP PC, or at least a 32-bit copy of Windows 7 (XP 32-bit box is possible but a bit iffy). Not to mention needing special hardware (PCLK-MN10 or 20)unless you can get your hands on the amazing CMT-series models that use only USB to communicate with the computer - but will still need 32-bit Windows. Of course you can with many decks use a PS/2 (not playstation, but the IBM designation PersonalSystem/2) keyboard. What deck do you have already?

Not sure Sony ..530 something? (optical out). Bought this to do optical out recording earlier, before I got this RH1. At this time I think I will not do any editing on the disc itself.

9. NOTE that if you leave track names completely blank before upload:

a. SS will put ridiculous names that involve the upload time, not the creation date

b. SS is very bad about deleting blank tracks, and will probably ruin your MDs owing to a bug if you try to delete more than 1 at a time, ever!!!!!!

Thanks for the warning. I have no intention to use SS for anything other than strict needed. I am not gonna lable things. Only rename the filename in windows explorer if possible. I will take off SS from the machine if the transfers are done.

10. Your plan of uploading one disk as one track is a good one if you plan to do major manipulation of the sound (eg de-crackling an LP using SF's built in tools). But if not, your sanity will be protected by leaving in the track marks. However you will still need to decrypt, remove from SS, combine and re-add if you plan any editing - so you may prefer to do the labelling before upload.

After the transfer, I do decrypting and I will edit the wav files (cut and past separate tracks as one long file). That file will be edited (bit of EQ, fades etc.) These files will be converted to FLAC and kept as the version to listen to. At that point I will probable have 3 versions if I understand things correctly, (1) the RAW .oma files, (2) the decrypted files (.wav? is decrypting the same as converting? And (3) the final FLACs.

11. As to FLAC, SF9 does not support it, but I have a feeling that SF10 does. Something for me to try soon.

There are several ways for WAV > FLAC. TradersLittleHelper is a nice one too.

12. Final piece of advice - save the RH1 for uploading, don't use as a player or for editing.

Thanks, I will.

grts,

Popmarter

[sfbp]

Very quickly (more later in detail perhaps!?)

1. The files' contents don't change on decryption. The extension changes from .oma to .OMA just as a "cosmetic" clue that something was done, however files such as AAL are .oma and unencrypted, so the renaming is just to help YOU.

2. SF cannot read the encrypted files.

3. MD->FLAC I really would stick to HiSP, because when you go to WAV you get unencrypted files, but you lose completely the 24-bitness. This is a preference, rather than a cast iron rule, because there's bound to be someone out there (MDietrich where are you?) who says I'm wrong and it doesn't actually matter Sounds like you do need SF version 10, and almost for sure there's nothing else that will manipulate ATRAC directly.

4. Multi-level directories are not supported by SonicStage. This is because it seems to be modelled on the Group == Album paradigm.

5. Keep SS around, so that you have those DLL's for playback. You never know when they may be useful. Also the FCT is effectively part of SS. I think SS is pretty benign on your computer, I have it on half a dozen machines without obvious side effects.

6. Strongly suggest you label things before upload, if you want to keep your Sanity. AS AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUM label the disk so that all the tracks from one MD end up in a single folder with the "right" name on it. As to blank tracks, I got in the habit of labelling them "a", "b", "c" etc to work around the SS bug. You can indeed label things from SonicStage, just try it out and try to remember that it's a bit one-way.

7. Do NOT use the Sonic Stage internal file divide (or combine) routines. They are a real pain - better off to remove files from SS, edit with SF, and reimport to SS.

[popmarter]

Very quickly (more later in detail perhaps!?)

1. The files' contents don't change on decryption. The extension changes from .oma to .OMA just as a "cosmetic" clue that something was done, however files such as AAL are .oma and unencrypted, so the renaming is just to help YOU.

2. SF cannot read the encrypted files.

3. MD->FLAC I really would stick to HiSP, because when you go to WAV you get unencrypted files, but you lose completely the 24-bitness. This is a preference, rather than a cast iron rule, because there's bound to be someone out there (MDietrich where are you?) who says I'm wrong and it doesn't actually matter Sounds like you do need SF version 10, and almost for sure there's nothing else that will manipulate ATRAC directly.

4. Multi-level directories are not supported by SonicStage. This is because it seems to be modelled on the Group == Album paradigm.

5. Keep SS around, so that you have those DLL's for playback. You never know when they may be useful. Also the FCT is effectively part of SS. I think SS is pretty benign on your computer, I have it on half a dozen machines without obvious side effects.

6. Strongly suggest you label things before upload, if you want to keep your Sanity. AS AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUM label the disk so that all the tracks from one MD end up in a single folder with the "right" name on it. As to blank tracks, I got in the habit of labelling them "a", "b", "c" etc to work around the SS bug. You can indeed label things from SonicStage, just try it out and try to remember that it's a bit one-way.

7. Do NOT use the Sonic Stage internal file divide (or combine) routines. They are a real pain - better off to remove files from SS, edit with SF, and reimport to SS.

Thanks, no need for a lot of help....i hope.

I got SoundForge 11. Here is what i did.

I put in one md (test), which contains a microphone recording (LP2)

In the Options section I did some changing of the filedirectories. Also I left the Transfer setting to NETMD (there was no alternative because I had my MD protected against writing), left the transfermode to standard.

I transferred one track. Indeed, you get a very strange filename (...bla bla.oma), but heck it is a test. Than it was time for the Start File Conversion Tool which i started from within SS.

I removed the Add Copy Protection option (i guess that is good?). Than i noticed the original file was renamed in, bla. OMA (like you said). This file I could open in Soundforge (the first .oma not).

VLC Media Player did play the .oma file btw, did you know that?

So, I opened the .OMA file in SoundForge and saved it to WAV (it was standard 44.1 stereo, just like the original). Is this ok? I am not sure where this whole 24bit part begins... I could not find anything.

From what it looks like i can do anything to the files, even the original .oma files ( i can listen to them with VLC Media Player) Looks like renaming and copiing in multilevel directories.

Can you confirm this is the right way? You are right, i have to do some labeling on the trackfiles...(EDIT: I had my disc writeprotected at first, I tried labeling one disc now, before upload, works great)

Thanks very much sofar btw,really nice of you.

grts,

Popmarter

EDIT 2: Getting it even more. A 'normal' MD (so no LP2) i giving more probs, can't play it in VLC for example.

[sfbp]

Yeah, well spotted, VLC can play MDLP (2 & 4) regardless of encryption, amazing. But nothing else.

OMA files are all really 24 bits, just doesn't show up in SF.

But you should be able to go straight to FLAC without going via WAV. Among other things, this should preserve any metadata that you added before the conversion.

You're doing gr8

[popmarter]

Thanks and yes I can go directly to Flac, I am familiar with that.

So looks like i get the basics here. One question. What would you recommend, keeping the encrypted .oma files in an archive.... or transfer them to .OMA and save those in an archive for life? I know, maybe a bit to detailed...but raw is raw

[popmarter]

Another thing... these raw files are 24bit? If open the .OMA in soundforge and save them directly to 24bit Flac i keep the original bitrate? Right? But where is that shown, as SF is listing things as 16bit, as you mentioned. I trust it, but is there a way to actually see it is 24bit?

[sfbp]

.oma files are overwritten by .OMA when using FCT. If you want to edit the OMA files be sure to REMOVE them from SS database and if need be re-add. It's only the uploaded-from-MD (whether HiMD or NetMD) which have this extra layer of protection added.

Note: not ALL .oma files are encrypted. For example AAL are never.

I hope you keep the bitrate, but the bitrate has nothing to do with the number of bits I may be completely wrong, but my belief is that you should get all the data from ATRAC if you save to 24bit FLAC. It's possible there is nothing, I haven't actually done that experiment, as I think I mentioned above, this is just a recommendation not a rule.

[popmarter]

Work in progress here. Simply renaming the md disc and than transferring it all to HD. No settings changed. Seems to work.

Ocassionally I use the File Conversion Tool to convert the stuff in the library. Next day i clean the libary and take on the new md's.

Opening the files in Soundforg list them (the .OMA files) as 16bit, 44.1 khz....

How should i keep the bitrate to 24bit?

[sfbp]

I think internally they really are 24 bit. ATRAC is a floating point format, so it's not quite the same as "true" 24 bits. However if you go straight to a 24bit format from ATRAC using Sound Forge, you should keep it all.

[popmarter]

From .OMA opening in Soundforge and than save/convert to 24 bit you mean? This seems a bit odd (converting something to 24bit if it is already 24bit). But that might be the discussion-part, I guess? No need to get into that

[sfbp]

As I say, one format's 24-bit is not the same as another's. ATRAC is using a logarithm approach. 24-bit WAV is using linear 24 bits. I really don't know how FLAC works.