Din Unlock C71 Error

[R_V]

37 minutes ago, NGY said:

OK. In that case, can you please send two photos, similar to the ones I attached above?

Just out of curiousity, I never seen a 520 besides those variants.

I can’t ATM, but they’re the same as your bottom 2 pics, w/ Opt, Coax , Analog. 

[NGY]

OK, thanks. That clarifies.

I give up then for now - maybe new facts come after the remaining tests.

[R_V]

6 hours ago, sfbp said:

One other little detail. Depending on what software you used to create a CD-R, it (the CD) MAY be considered uncopyable, like a second generation MD. Bruce (Bluecrab) demonstrated this to me and sent me a CD with holes in it (not literally, but in the SCMS bit pattern!) to prove the point, which I still have. I suppose it's even possible that some tracks on a CD-R might be copyable, others not. But that's not what you're seeing, is it. You're getting skips.

Not a bad point... it had also crossed my mind when the issue started, way before I decide to post the issue here and way before I found and bought new (sealed) blank MDs...

By the time I found this forum and 'popped the question' I had already made all sorts of recording tests, from a CD-R was one of them, but it didn't help has I had also tried CD-WR, and 'normal' studio and also from my Record player and my Apple Mac, from own my recorded MD disc etc. etc. and the issue was still there, so it made me think it was a dodgy blank MD, not the audio source(s). Cheers

P.S. I don't want this to go off topic, neither I want to argue long about this; but doesn't my recorded CDs (recorded through iTunes) get rid of SCMS?  
I never had a problem recording from those (iTune's recorded CDs) and neither my friends ever had any issues copying those recorded CDs, into their Mac/PC and then into their iPod/iPhones etc., regardless if they were iTunes purchased songs or imported into my iTunes library, from another source...

[sfbp]

I've never used Itunes. But if I was the proprietor of Itunes I might well send the "holey" bit patterns to prevent people making second gen copies. As I said, I don't think that's what's happening here - this all arose when you suddenly got "cannot copy" in the middle of your various tests.

It WOULD be interesting to see if the skips happen on the coax connection. I have a little gizmo that converts TOSlink to coax and also the reverse (one box) which might be worth the $10 or so (of course you could be an electronics whiz like these two guys and make one for about $3), if your source is TOSlink only.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Coaxial-to-Optical-Toslink-SPDIF-Audio-Converter-Bi-Directional-Swtich/233400933139

 

[NGY]

 

1 hour ago, sfbp said:

It WOULD be interesting to see if the skips happen on the coax connection. I have a little gizmo that converts TOSlink to coax and also the reverse ..., if your source is TOSlink only.

This would definitely be worth to try. However, I would proceed like this:

- conclude the two desks TOSLINK back and forth tests to exclude any issues with the decks' TOSLINK inputs/outputs. Just for the peace of mind, that this part is also all OK on both decks, then

- find a source device that does have a coaxial digital output (tv for example, DVD player, another receiver, etc.), instead of converting the existing CD deck's optical output. It is not yet confirmed, that it is OK or not. If the problem lies there, that would make the test with the SPDIF converter useless too.

 

[R_V]

On 10/21/2020 at 1:33 AM, R_V said:

Tested recording between both decks with RCA cables - all good, no skips, no issues.

(Ignore this above, it must have been a lucky attempt?)

So spent the last 2 or so days, testing all different scenarios… recording between the two JE520 MD decks using different RCA cables, and different blank MD discs, and reversed the order of MD deck recording, also test recording from 3 different audio sources (into each MD deck) directly connected with different RCA cables, (no Amp).

Also tried recording from the CD deck, via different Toslink cables, into each MD deck, using different blank MD discs, and no improvement!

Not only I used different audio sources, I also used different CDs (original and CD-R), different Playlists and vinyl records, MD discs (recorded)  etc., playing from those 3-4 audio sources (CD deck, Phono, Mac and MD deck A, or B . 

I also tried all the above using REC SYNC and normal REC (where you press REC and pause, manually) and flicked the OPT. COAX, ANALOG. selector couple of times before each recording. All showing correctly on each of the JE520 screens.

All I get is bloody skips and skids, #$@&%*!

1. When I get skips (similar to a vinyl record) is while recording, and I notice extra tracks being created for each skip on the same song…
2. When I get skids, it’s only noticeable at playback and it freezes (both the song and timer on JE520 screens) for 1-2 secs. and then continues to play again until next skid and so on.

 

I cannot believe two separate MD decks, have exactly the same issue, no recording!?  Now I have 2 MD decks for playback only  #$@&%*! 

[kgallen]

This seems too perverse to be true (note: I'm not disbelieving your analysis!). There must be some bizarre explanation! Whilst I've had similar with my Tascam MD-CD1 [*] (not actually the new track issue though), I've never had this with any of my Sony decks, not least my beloved 520.

Let us think a while...

 

[*] This deck has more firmware bugs than you can shake a stick at. Admittedly many are related to titling.

[R_V]

17 minutes ago, kgallen said:

my beloved 520.

 For many years, I used to say that too.  It travelled w/ me from EU, to Australia, then UK for many years and back to AUS for almost 10, never skipped a bit !
Then last 6 months this issue occurred... bought a second 520 last week and same issue...

Do they have an end of life, similar to DSLRs (after 100.000 clicks, the shutter dies) ?

I also read somewhere about misaligned heads (2x on each deck), but not on my two decks, I wouldn't think?

[kgallen]

Laser life and mechanical damage probably the only ones in practice. NGY will know better but unless you're into thousands of hours of laser use, particularly in record mode, then unless your machine has been abused then I'm not sure how many true laser failures are actually seen. We blame the laser a lot, mostly unjustly from what I've seen. When my newly acquired 530 gave C13's I looked to the laser for months. It wasn't, it was the ribbon cables (but everyone here is bored of that story, sorry [*]).

Sure, audio performance can deteriorate when electrolytic caps dry out and if you're unlucky similar in the power supply section can result in noisy power supplies which can unsettle the digital logic. But we're talking Sony Japan here and they don't build their machines with junk components.

My 520 is from 98/99 and is like new.

Did you ever read the odo counters in your 520s? (Need to enter Service Mode - warnings per NGY from earlier in the thread).

 

Kevin

[*] It's where it all started for me on this forum 

 

[R_V]

36 minutes ago, kgallen said:

...unless you're into thousands of hours of laser use... in record mode, then unless you're machine has been abused...

When my newly acquired 530 gave C13's I looked to the laser for months. It wasn't, it was the ribbon cables (but everyone here is bored of that story, sorry).

My 520 is from 98/99 and is like new.

Did you ever read the odo counters in your 520s? (Need to enter Service Mode - warnings per NGY from earlier in the thread).

Never really had that much recording, a wee bit of play, maybe.  From '97 and still like new (deck A).

I had my first C13 error today, nothing major. Wiped all songs and recorded again. (deck B 

Haven't read about odometers, yet.  NGY warning put me off...

[kgallen]

Oh dear. I wonder if I should replay my tired old record again that all educated and sensible people here are sick of me wheeling out. Maybe we need to check your ribbon cables for oxidation... :-D

[NGY]

6 hours ago, R_V said:

On 10/20/2020 at 5:33 PM, R_V said:

Tested recording between both decks with RCA cables - all good, no skips, no issues.

(Ignore this above, it must have been a lucky attempt?)

So funny, I had the same thought last night ...

But allow me to take one step backwards, seems I lost the point (my apologies, I will try to re-read the whole thread, but I am just too tired and brain gets disfunctional): now you get those bloody skips again. OK, we will got on that. But we were trying to solve the C71 error - that is, a missing digital input signal in rec mode. Can we separate the two issues somehow? Do you still get the DIN UNLOCK error, if you do, it is only when you trying to record via TOSLINK, or also via analogue?

The reason I asked is I try to understand if those two (skips and C71) are related to each other in any way.

[NGY]

5 hours ago, kgallen said:

Maybe we need to check your ribbon cables for oxidation... :-D

This never hurts ... and really, this must always be one of the very first "trivial" checks of an actual troubleshooting.

- - - - -

On a completely different note: can someone please help me (Stephen maybe?): how can I insert multiple quotes, from different people, if their posts are on different pages? I seem to lose my open post if I turn the page back or forth. I just hate to generate so many posts when I could do it in a single one... Especially, if those are in the same context...

[NGY]

6 hours ago, R_V said:

Haven't read about odometers, yet.  NGY warning put me off...

Yeah, if someone is not familar with Service Mode, better to stay off.

Nevertheless (while I do keep my previous words on that), to understand where those skips come from, we need to either exclude the lasers as the possible cause, or confirm their possibly "going to die soon" status. For that we can go either 1) the objective: by measuring the laser's power and current (out of question in your case), and 2) the "guess": by doing an estimation based on the odometers (and past data of other decks). The record back and forth test turned out being unsatisfactory.

6 hours ago, R_V said:

Do they have an end of life

If you meant the lasers, yes, they do. But it is not such an exact limit, it is more of "getting tired", and that depends on multiple different factors, not only the total play/rec hours (though still being the major ones).

I should now insert some links to a few other threads/posts here in the forum where I explained some aspects of lasers ageing and reasons - I will try to supplement it later.

[R_V]

11 hours ago, R_V said:

So spent the last 2 or so days, testing all different scenarios… recording between the two JE520 MD decks using different RCA cables, and different blank MD discs, and reversed the order of MD deck recording, also test recording from 3 different audio sources (into each MD deck) directly connected with different RCA cables, (no Amp).

Also tried recording from the CD deck, via different Toslink cables, into each MD deck, using different blank MD discs, and no improvement!

Not only I used different audio sources, I also used different CDs (original and CD-R), different Playlists and vinyl records, MD discs (recorded)  etc., playing from those 3-4 audio sources (CD deck, Phono, Mac and MD deck A, or B . 

I also tried all the above using REC SYNC and normal REC (where you press REC and pause, manually) and flicked the OPT. COAX, ANALOG. selector couple of times before each recording. All showing correctly on each of the JE520 screens.

All I get is bloody skips and skids, #$@&%*!

1. When I get skips (similar to a vinyl record) is while recording, and I notice extra tracks being created for each skip on the same song…
2. When I get skids, it’s only noticeable at playback and it freezes (both the song and timer on JE520 screens) for 1-2 secs. and then continues to play again until next skid and so on.

 

I cannot believe two separate MD decks, have exactly the same issue, no recording!?  Now I have 2 MD decks for playback only  #$@&%*! 

 

[R_V]

5 hours ago, NGY said:

...the objective: by measuring the laser's power and current

How's this done, with a laser reader?
If so, I don't know anyone who has one.

11 hours ago, kgallen said:

... Maybe need to check your ribbon cables for oxidation...

Wouldn't this affect both playback and recording?
Both MD decks play (my old recorded MD discs) very, well.

How easy is to replace/buy and ship new ribbons?
What about the lasers, easy to find/buy??

...two MD decks, have exactly the same issue!?  How likely is this?

[sfbp]

NGY: I think if you post twice it may under certain circumstances combine the posts. For example when you quote 2 different posts. Not sure, though. Never tried to do it on purpose only by accident. (I think you may be able to join two of your own posts after the fact, too)

Yeah, this is getting weird isn't it.

I'm wondering about a very noisy powersupply. THOSE might degrade at the same month in history.

[kgallen]

7 hours ago, R_V said:

How easy is to replace/buy and ship new ribbons?

Its unlikely you need to replace them. Generally the exposed fingers at the end gather some tarnish/oxidation. All that is required is to pull the ribbon from the socket both at the MD drive end and the main PCB end and reinsert. Maybe twice. 

They aren’t desperately fragile but you need to keep them square in and out of the sockets and avoid putting a crease in them.

Actually I found they are pretty much a standard electronics item off the shelf. I have a thread on here on just this topic (I’ll add when on a proper computer). They are 1.00mm FFC cables. You need the right length/width/number of cores and Forward/Reverse contacts (all Sony MD I’ve looked at needed Forward). On my thread I haven’t documented the 520 requirements as I haven’t ever had the lid off mine :-)
 

Kevin

ETA: Here is the FFC cable thread: (23/Oct/2020 I've updated the eBay UK links):

 

[NGY]

13 hours ago, NGY said:

On a completely different note: can someone please help me (Stephen maybe?): how can I insert multiple quotes, from different people, if their posts are on different pages? I seem to lose my open post if I turn the page back or forth.

Thanks Stephen for stepping in on this one. Sadly I could not combine existing posts. However...

...it seems I did find a solution to the problem - I post it here, should anybody else need it in the future (apologies to those who already had known and been using this feature):

If you intend to quote from multiple posts (and it even does not matter, if from different people and/or from different pages), instead of clicking on the "Quote" button under the post (or, clicking on "Quote selection" under a highlighted part of it), first click on the "Multiquote" sign (if you hover your mouse pointer over that plus sign in front of the "Quote" button, see picture below), that will mark that post for quoting. You repeat it for all posts you are going to quote, and while doing this, in the lower right corner of the screen it will show how many posts you already selected (second picture below) . Once done with all needed marks, you click on that "Quote XX posts" button, and presto, all those posts are quoted into one single new post. From then you can either delete unnecessary parts of a given quote, and/or rearrange them to your needs, by dragging them with their four-arrows sign in their upper left corner (third picture). I tried and it does work across multiple pages.

     

8 hours ago, R_V said:

 ... skips ... skids...

Thanks for quoting this for me.

I get your point - for me it is practically the same fenomenon, with the difference in the time the laser spends finding the next bit of information (skip=quicker, skid=slower).

However, I am still confused by the skips/skids vs. the C71.

Let me touch on this below.

 

7 hours ago, R_V said:

How's this done, with a laser reader?
If so, I don't know anyone who has one.

Wouldn't this affect both playback and recording?
Both MD decks play (my old recorded MD discs) very, well.

How easy is to replace/buy and ship new ribbons?
What about the lasers, easy to find/buy??

...two MD decks, have exactly the same issue!?  How likely is this?

- LPM: Yes, an LPM (=Laser Power Meter) these days is a rare bird. Some people (like Stephen, Kevin) cough the cash up and buy those expensive but very good Sanwa LPM-s (200 quids or more), while others (like me) just build their own makeshift stuff, to be able to properly measuer/set their lasers. The other important piece of test hardware is that test jig, specific to each MDM type.

- record/placback: an ageing or incorrectly set laser migh or might not impact both reading and writing. This is a very complex thing, I cannot really go into details here, the SM (although seems written in Chinese or some other egzotic languages :-) ) is a good source for more information, or you get the rough idea from here (or here), to begin with.

- ribbons: Kevin already answered it to full extent

- lasers to buy/replace: some thoughts in those post/threads already linked above

- two decks, same issue: as I wrote before, it is what you see, and it is probably not the case.

 

Here is my proposal for you (my aim with wasting my spare time here on this forum (and on others too) is trying to help people repairing their equipment, should that be an MD deck, or an oldimer motorcycle, you name it), and  you decide if you want to make use of it:

As now you have two identical 520 models, let's take now just one of them, and use as an experimental piece. You may want to agree to "sacrifice" it - we won't do anything irreversible to it anyhow, but you don't do anything else on it either until we conclude our tests. We go step by step, one at a time, tick out if something is good and thus out of question, and then move forward. Hopefully, by the end we sort out the real problem and make a fix. Also hopefully, you can replicate that fix on the other 520 too, provided it was the same, or go through another set of checks if it was not and if you are willing to. All I am asking is to always focus only on the given step, do only what is related to it, and feed back all information I requested. I know such a remote repair session can be long, tiresome and seem just waste of time,  but you let me know.

[R_V]

On 10/23/2020 at 4:34 PM, kgallen said:

...some tarnish/oxidation. All that is required is to pull the ribbon from the socket both at the MD drive end and the main PCB end and reinsert. Maybe twice.

So you're saying by pulling the ribbon from the socket twice, is enough to remove oxidation, I don't understand ?

[R_V]

On 10/23/2020 at 7:27 PM, NGY said:

However, I am still confused by the skips/skids vs. the C71.

I don't get those errors... Just skips/skids

[kgallen]

1 hour ago, R_V said:

So you're saying by pulling the ribbon from the socket twice, is enough to remove oxidation, I don't understand ?

Yep. Extraction and reinsertion a couple of times will cause the contacts in the PCB socket to scrape the fingers on the FFC ribbon enough to cut through any tarnish and reestablish a connection.

The FFC fingers are tin plated so relatively soft. 

[NGY]

3 hours ago, R_V said:

I don't get those errors... Just skips/skids

NOW you made me VERY confused.

The title of this topic is "Din Unlock C71 Error". Your first post here was:

On 9/30/2020 at 9:47 AM, R_V said:

I have a similar error!
(no code number, Din Unlock just Din Unlock)
 

A bit later, you wrote:

On 10/16/2020 at 5:48 PM, R_V said:

• I still do have errors on screen saying DIN UNLOCK every now and then, but only when recording from CD (via Toslink cable) and on both MD decks.

We went back and forth trying to solve your DIN UNLOCK error (= Sony error code "C71", and machine dependent if the code itself, the text string, or both appear on the screen), and - if you allow me - your answers were a bit inconsistent, that's why I explicitly asked days ago,

On 10/22/2020 at 10:30 PM, NGY said:

... But we were trying to solve the C71 error - that is, a missing digital input signal in rec mode. Can we separate the two issues somehow? Do you still get the DIN UNLOCK error, if you do, it is only when you trying to record via TOSLINK, or also via analogue?

The reason I asked is I try to understand if those two (skips and C71) are related to each other in any way.

In your answer you quoted your post that talked about skips and skids... Therefore I had to get back to this  - essential - question again:  "However, I am still confused by the skips/skids vs. the C71. " And now you are saying you don't have these errors...

Can you please clarify? These are two TOTALLY different kind of errors, might or might not have to do with each other, but can certainly be originated from totally different areas of the device. In general, troubleshooting must reflect the problem, if two or more problems exist, they MUST be separated somehow. A given error cannot be fixed by tests made in order to fix another error.

And my last question in the matter (don't get me wrong, no hard feelings here, I just try to rectify things so everyone is on the same page): - do you want us to help you to fix your machines? If you do, would you accept the proposed methodology I offered above? If you don't, no problem, just please clarify it, and I will not bother you any further.

- - - - -

3 hours ago, R_V said:

So you're saying by pulling the ribbon from the socket twice, is enough to remove oxidation, I don't understand ?

 

1 hour ago, kgallen said:

Yep. Extraction and reinsertion a couple of times will cause the contacts in the PCB socket to scrape the fingers on the FFC ribbon enough to cut through any tarnish and reestablish a connection.

The FFC fingers are tin plated so relatively soft. 

While I agree with Kevins point that it would help, you may want to take your time and clean the ribbons properly, like that: pull them out, first do some mechanical cleaning (erasure for example) then apply some chemical cleaning (propanol for example). We have already discussed it in full details several times (here, here, here, here, etc., etc.).

[R_V]

 

On my first post, indeed had those errors. 

Later on, on a later post, I thought I made clear I no longer have those errors, just skips/skids , I said. 

[R_V]

I followed the “proposed methodology” (except the odometers).

I spent two days double test recording on both MD decks and reported all back.what did I miss?

 

P.S. thanks for those links. I hadn’t seen all before. Have lots to read tomorrow, cheers 

[R_V]

9 hours ago, kgallen said:

Yep. Extraction and reinsertion a couple of times will cause the contacts in the PCB socket to scrape the fingers on the FFC ribbon enough to cut through any tarnish and reestablish a connection.

The FFC fingers are tin plated so relatively soft. 

Thanks for clearing that up. 
Do they look like twist ties? Do you happen to have pics of what they look like and where they are located, please?

[R_V]

Quote

I am having DIN LOCK errors again.

Yesterday I got a new CD and though I would try test-record it, (via Toslink).  In just one song, (during recording) it gives me 21x DIN LOCK errors and creates 21x new tracks every time it does so!  (this was also reported Oct 15)

So briefly, the reported issues, within the past couple of weeks, or so;

Sept 30 DIN errors
Oct 15, no errors, just skips (at playback)
Oct 17, DIN errors
Oct 21, no errors, just skips (at playback)
Oct 23, no errors, just skips & skids (at playback)
Oct 27, DIN errors (as mentioned above, during recording)

NGY If my "answers were a bit inconsistent", that's because of the results I got, inconsistent.

P.S. These days, (when) I get DIN UNLOCK, not C71.  I only get C71, if I turn off i.e. CD player before the MD deck, or if Toslink is not connected etc.

[kgallen]

 

On 10/26/2020 at 12:33 PM, R_V said:

Thanks for clearing that up. 
Do they look like twist ties? Do you happen to have pics of what they look like and where they are located, please?

Sorry @R_V it seems I owe you a reply here!

There are two ribbon cables that go from the main board to the drive. They are about 25mm wide and very thin. Here is a photo showing them, see the top left of this photo, circled  - although this picture is from a 440 or 480, I don't recall. Yours will be in a slightly different place no doubt, and the main board will look different, but you're looking for thin ribbon cables that look like this whatever the details inside your particular machine. In this picture, ignore the narrower one in the middle of this picture, that goes to the front panel. You might have one also in your machine but this one is not of interest at this point.

The way to remove and insert these is to use both hands, with each end of the ribbon between thumb and first finger, holding down as close to the connector as possible. Pull up gently, keeping square and re-insert with a firm but gentle push down, again keeping the ribbon square with the connector. Total travel is only about 3mm.

Overall, where did you get to with your two machines?

 

[NGY]

5 hours ago, kgallen said:

... see the top left of this photo, circled  - although this picture is from a 440 or 480, I don't recall.

This is a "universal" JE640 MB, from a 440 actually - you can observe the markings around the front panel ribbon connector (and that neither the 640's keyboard buffer circuit part nor the S50's PC-Link buffer circuit areas are populated). The "MDSJE640-Main" mark is normally next to the longer BD ribbon connector (not visible here, covered by the ribbon itself).

[kgallen]

57 minutes ago, NGY said:

This is a "universal" JE640 MB, from a 440 actually - you can observe the markings around the front panel ribbon connector (and that neither the 640's keyboard buffer circuit part nor the S50's PC-Link buffer circuit areas are populated). The "MDSJE640-Main" mark is normally next to the longer BD ribbon connector (not visible here, covered by the ribbon itself).

It is indeed! I have the lid off now and have been looking around this for a while! (Initially looking at the parts for optical out). Indeed the board is mastered for the 640 and I also see silk screen for the S50 front panel connector. I'm just comparing and contrasting the 440 and 640 schematics wrt the PCB build. I was just eyeballing the headphone amp section fitted for the 640 and not the 440. Good deduction young man @NGY! :-)

 

(Waaaay off topic but this machine plays properly but has record issues. The OP is adjusted to spec with the LPM-1 and the IOP [using said MDM7 jig]. Tracks will record in that there are no errors and TOC is apparently written - track can be titled! But whilst the new track number is detected the new track can't be read - deck (this or E10) can't retrieve the track time or play any audio. OWH measures out at 1.8 ohms so is not open circuit. With the lid off trying to play the track I can see the OP constantly seeking around where the track start is. I've just recorded some tracks at IN, MID and OUT and these all now read, so an intermittent issue. Sometimes it seems the OWH head drops slowly, so maybe this is a lubrication or not-used-for-a-long-time issue - although this is consistent and only happens when the OWH drops to write the TOC - it's like it's sneaking up on the disc slowly to avoid frightening away the track data that doesn't yet have all of the TOC pointers in place! Interestingly if the TOC is clean and then I title the track only, then the OWH whacks straight down. But if I record audio, title and then eject to write TOC, the OWH drops slowly again. This seems repeatable and deliberate. Hmmmm... <cheeky> Ideas welcome! </cheeky>)

[R_V]

On 4/7/2021 at 2:02 AM, kgallen said:

Overall, where did you get to with your two machines?

Not sure what/how it happened, I simply removed and reinserted those ribbons a couple of times and voilà, it works !

Thank you.

[kgallen]

22 minutes ago, R_V said:

Not sure what/how it happened, I simply removed and reinserted those ribbons a couple of times and voilà, it works !

Thank you.

This weekend I had to do exactly the same (again) with my 530. It started failing to read discs. Give the two ribbons a clean and also voila, normal service resumes!

Result!