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When can we expect Sony's Wav converter?

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meatbingo

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For me, the whole point of interest regarding the new Hi-MD format was being able to upload faster than real time and convert to wav. Everything else, like the larger storage capacity was just icing. Real time workarounds are pointless for me because I don't care about keeping things digital, I just want faster uploading.

What's worse for me is that my old MZ-R35 is starting to act weird, like track numbers changing on their own and seeming to get stuck on certain tracks. I think it's soon about to die on me, so I need a replacement. But until there is a way of converting recordings to wav faster than realtime I'm not going to be buying a Hi-MD unit.

So, when CAN we expect Sony to release the wav converter? Will it even ever appear? And when it does, will it do the job properly or just be a half-hearted effort?

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According to Sony, the wav converter will be able to decode ATRAC3plus 256kbit/sec recordings done analogically (that means no digital recordings will be convertable) via line or microphone input.

This sort of confuses me, though, because Hi-MD is capable of recording linear PCM... so why not subject it to the converter? At least put in a method for stripping the DRM off it so it can be used easily.

I mean, this should make things a lot easier, but it seems to be a very awkward method of addressing the issue.

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I didn't realise that. I thought that any analogue recording would be convertable to wav. I mean I don't have any problem with using 256 ATRAC, but like you say it doesn't make sense not to be able to convert PCM recordings.

Basically, the more obstacles Sony put in place, the more pointless it becomes to me. I'd rather just stick with my current method of recording via my M-Audio Audiophile into Soundforge.

I like minidisc, I've used it for five years and got used to it, but it SHOULD be much easier to get recordings from MD to PC and actually do things with those recordings. I've looked into other options, but just don't like the idea of carrying a hard disc around and all those HD units just don't seem designed for recording.

And anyway, how hard is it to make a wav converter?! Hurry up Sony!

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The deal with Sony is, they are a unique maker of consumer electronics. Not only do they make devices that are capable of utilizing unsecure digital music, but they are also a publisher of intellectual property (music).

To me, this equates as Sony doesn't want Sony's music being stolen on Sony's devices. Or somesuch thing.

The unfortunate thing is, MD is a versatile recording format and would be quite useful, and probably make Sony even more money, if Sony would not worry so much about people stealing Sony's music and playing it on Sony's devices.

Besides, most people I know would rather buy the CD than steal music off the 'net. I buy all my music (all the music available locally, anyway... I have no real choice but to download all the J-Pop I listen to, and even then I'm amazingly picky about bitrate) because I want something better than badly ripped 128kbps joint-stereo MP3s. >.>;

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Can we have some clarity as regards the "Wave Converter":

1. The statement made above is that the Converter *can* or will convert ATRAC to wave; it does not say it will not convert PCM to unencrypted wave. And what about other ATRAC codecs at lower bit rates?

2. Where is Sony's statement, so that we can see for ourselves what Sony "says"? Is there a link, or is this some privileged communication, or what?

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I dont think that Sony will ever reveal an OMG to WAV converter. Those wishes connot be realized due to the Copyright protection Sony has to provide.

On the other hand, its very bad that even recordings from LINE-IN cannot be convertet. I got a MD, i cant even download any of the songs to the PC. As long as the write-Protection is enabled, the Software even wont start ripping. When i remove the write protection, it always show me an error message.

Therefore, just forget it.

Sony made a lot of advertisement with PCM, MD-kompatibility, etc.... bla bla bla. But when you buy a Hi-MD unit, you will know how disappointed you will be really (like me).

And Sony is not even going to do anything for their customers. They only want you to buy their gadgets, after that, just forget any of your wish, which is not implemented in the Sony Software. For Example, i still didnt find any way to upload a MONO-Standar ATRAC Song to a Standard-MD in MONO-mode. It always converted to Stereo. But i dont want that. I want to use MONO and hava a playback time of 160 Minutes.

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Considering the fact that the uploaded Hi-MD encrypted audio is now present on the PC, I believe that one or more enterprising hackers will crack the encryption to produce pure WAV data. Prior to this our audio was "trapped" on the NetMD and would have required new circuitry and firmware to get the audio out in digital format. Now all that needs to be done is a little decryption work. The encryption can't be too strong because of real-time decoding issues. Obviously, SonicStage has that code in it somewhere for hackers to view.

So even if Sony doesn't produce the converter utility soon, I expect to see one from someone else before year's end. In the meantime, we do have true digital uploading via the USB cable and can capture the digital audio via Total Recorder. No analog components involved at all.

On a side note, it was interesting to note that SonicStage will only upload and play Hi-MD data, but not NetMD data.

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On a side note, it was interesting to note that SonicStage will only upload and play Hi-MD data, but not NetMD data.

It is interesting... uploading with an actual NetMD unit is not possible due to the design/firmware of NetMD, but with Hi-MD it is eminently possible... so why can't it be done?

Food for thought, definitely.

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For Example, i still didnt find any way to upload a MONO-Standar ATRAC Song to a Standard-MD in MONO-mode. It always converted to Stereo. But i dont want that. I want to use MONO and hava a playback time of 160 Minutes.

This has been a problem since the dawn of NetMD and OpenMG. Sony has never allowed true NetMD transfers of actual 292kbit/sec ATRAC audio (stereo or mono). Either version on either player transfers a "compatibility mode" which is upsampled LP2 (thus, does not take advantage of the quality capable by SP mode recordings). It's also transcoded so you take an even deeper quality hit. >.>; It's techically worse than LP2.

No clue why they didn't allow true SP transfers via NetMD. More of Sony's odd behavior, I imagine.

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can someone upload to somewhere an ogm file that was transferred from a himd that was an analog pcm recording? it only has to be a few seconds long, and contain some audible signal. i'd like to take a look at it...

Someone COULD, but you wouldn't be able to play it. OpenMG format has Digital Rights Management all over it, and only plays on the PC it was encoded on.

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I just picked up an MZ-NH700 after years on my clunker of an R37, EXPRESSLY in the belief that I could finally 'flash' my sound recordings to the PC for editing, rather than having to run through my line-in in real time. I use the MD exclusively for mic-recorded interviews and live music recordings.

Now I find out that the seemingly hyper-paranoid boys at Sony won't let me do this. Sure, I can upload my field recordings, but only into SonicStage (and only once!), and the result is a format that I'm not allowed to edit.

I have to say that this really pisses me off. Sony has hyped this great new uploading function, but crippled the whole thing by barb-wiring my audio behind inaccessible USB transfer protocols and the untouchable OpenMG file format. Furthermore, my calls for clarification to the Sony help desk were met by drools and shrugs.

If, after all this, I still have to play my audio through my PC line-in, I intend to pack up the NH700 and get my $400 back. If I'm wrong on any of these points, please let me know.

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Welcome..

Colin, we understand you're disappointed, but the woes revolving the uploading feature have been discussed to death here, the main minidisc.org news page, and the minidisc t-board. If you've neglected to do your homework before investing $400CAD then who's real fault is it?

I would suggest you at least try recording anew on a Hi-MD disc or a MD converted into Hi-MD mode. You can upload those tracks via USB playback and facilitate the recording through TotalRecorder, Audacity, or Adobe Audition - many of the forum's users have had great success with this. PCM + 256kbps ATRAC3plus are very nice recording options that give you decent flexibility.

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Kurisu

I have pre-ordered the 800 plus a stereo mic from soundprofessional which will ship tomorrow I'm told.

I'll be looking to use my MD (like most people on here) to record live music. I've noted your suggestion of Total Recorder and I've downloaded a version. It's freeware and I think it's the standard version 3.3. Any idea will this older version do the trick or will I have to pay the $13 for the newer??

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Sorry, don't mean to be a nuisance, here. It seems that I'm not alone in my upload-frustration. Kurisu, I have gone into Audition to try a real-time USB dump, but my nh700 manual states explicitly "You cannot operate the recorder while the recorder is connected to the computer." Play just won't work. What am I missing here?

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I just picked up an MZ-NH700 after years on my clunker of an R37, EXPRESSLY in the belief that I could finally 'flash' my sound recordings to the PC for editing, rather than having to run through my line-in in real time....  Now I find out that the seemingly hyper-paranoid boys at Sony won't let me do this.  I have to say that this really pisses me off. Furthermore, my calls for clarification to the Sony help desk were met by drools and shrugs.

I know this. I have MZ-NH600 and i have the trouble that i cannot upload my Audio in MONO-mode, and i dont have a playbacktime of 160 Minutes in SP-Mode. Even if its possible easily, Sony does not enable this Option. I dont know why they not support the wishes of their customers.

My suggestion for you is to rip all of your MDs into WAV-Format. With WAV-Format, you can do whatever you want to do. And its even lossless 100 % pure digital audio.

The way how you can do this, is right here:

http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=5785

Good luck.

:wacky:

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Sorry, don't mean to be a nuisance, here.  It seems that I'm not alone in my upload-frustration.  Kurisu, I have gone into Audition to try a real-time USB dump, but my nh700 manual states explicitly "You cannot operate the recorder while the recorder is connected to the computer."  Play just won't work.  What am I missing here?

You need to play your file directly from Minidisc using Sonic Stage 2 to get a digital playback over usb.

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What Sony need to do to make up for their lack of insight into user's needs when (hopefully not if) they make their mythical Wav converter, is make it as simple as possible.

What I'd like to see would be a simple uploader program that would allow me to browse the contents of a minidisc and preview them before choosing the ones I would like to convert to Wav. Then it would upload these files, convert them and place them in my designated folder.

Why do I get the feeling that it won't be that simple. I can imagine having to upload to Sonicstage first, then have to launch the seperate Wav converter.

Talking about real-time workarounds just doesn't work for me. That's not what Hi-MD was supposed to be about. I've been real-time uploading since 1998! This was supposed to be the thing that should have happened when NetMD came out.

I really hope Sony get this Wav program right. That's if it happens at all. If not, then surely someone could crack the format and write a third-party converter? Let's hope either happen soon.

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I know Sony have a vested interest, but the amount of people that might pirate music using minidisc is miniscule next to those who use MP3 for the same purpose. And besides, I (and many others) only want to upload and edit unique recordings that I have made myself. Those that Sony have no copyright over.

In fact, the more I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony already have (and have had) the Wav conversion utility ready for as long as they've had Hi-MD. I think this is more a case of differing departments with differing interests. The engineering arm of Sony possibly intended Hi-MD to be fully uploadable, but were hampered by the music company side, who paranoically feared that they'd lose a few quid.

Get real Sony, whatever money you might lose through piracy, you'd gain many times over through sales of fully functional Hi-MD units to people who use them for genuine unique recording purposes.

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Someone COULD, but you wouldn't be able to play it. OpenMG format has Digital Rights Management all over it, and only plays on the PC it was encoded on.

So if I understand correctly, you could NOT do this:

1. record in PCM to HiMD through the analog line in

2. connect HiMD to desktop PC via USB

3. transfer the track to PC (results in an ogm file)

4. put that OGM on your laptop via network or some other means

5. play back OMG file in sony's software player on the laptop

So basically you can never delete the HiMD or else you lose the ability to play that file back as soon as it leaves the computer it was first uploaded to...? like if you have to reinstall windows for example then you are SOL?

thanks for clarification

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So if I understand correctly, you could NOT do this:

1. record in PCM to HiMD through the analog line in

2. connect HiMD to desktop PC via USB

3. transfer the track to PC (results in an ogm file)

4. put that OGM on your laptop via network or some other means

5. play back OMG file in sony's software player on the laptop

So basically you can never delete the HiMD or else you lose the ability to play that file back as soon as it leaves the computer it was first uploaded to...? like if you have to reinstall windows for example then you are SOL?

Um... that isn't what I meant. But you sort of have the right idea. Uploading an analog recorded track can only be done once... but I imagine if SonicStage were uninstalled, your HDD formatted, etc, that would make SonicStage not know it ever transferred the track to PC in the first place.

Eevn so, the OMG uploaded from your Hi-MD unit would only play on the SonicStage installed on your primary computer and not on your laptop because OMG is Secure media.

You can always do the USB recording method via TotalRecorder or Audacity.

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Uploading an analog recorded track can only be done once... but I imagine if SonicStage were uninstalled, your HDD formatted, etc, that would make SonicStage not know it ever transferred the track to PC in the first place.

The reason you have to leaves discs write-enabled all the time is because the computer updates the DRM info on the discs when you ship tracks back and forth. That way the DRM record exists both on your puter and on the disc itself.

It also means then when you finish uploading a track, the disc itself now says 'no more uploads'.

Of course.. we don't know yet whether it says "no uploads at all" or "no uploads by computer with ID xxxx."

I suspect it's actually "no uploads at all," in which case no, reformatting your computer won't help you with reuploading a file.

Someone needs to test this - but it's not going to be me. I can't afford the downtime.

Anyone going to be reformatting soon that wants to test this out?

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The point is this, when I first had problems with upload, I thought that the discs used were responsible. (Old BASF discs).

But then, when 14 consecutive tracks in one group out of 21 refused to upload from the included 1GB disc, it made me thinking. The other 50 tracks on that disc uploaded without further problems.

I then recorded the same 14 tracks again. In Linear PCM. On the same disc. Guess what - everything could be uploaded without any problem. I then used that very same disc to transfer another 60 tracks, I could upload these as well without a problem. Normally, if a disc is defective, the problem appears always at the same position, but it doesn't happen here.

But I'm not done yet, i've had another 15 tracks waiting on a TDK RXG74 disc, so I checked, if all tracks were playable by quickly playing the first few seconds of each track.

Of course, all were playable.

But again, one track refused to upload, AND that one refused to play on the recorder itself. "CANNOT PLAY" was the message. Before the failed upload, it could be played.

Another problem, when tracks had been uploaded error free, I get error messages when converting from Hi-SP into LP2, something like "Cannot convert, Unsupported file format" on one out of 50 tracks.

Of course, the BASF-discs mentioned in the beginning, had no errors when used again...

And if someone asks, the recorder was placed on a flat, vibration free surface, had a freshly charged battery inside and the power supply connected and plugged in.

And I was NOT pounding the table either...

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This isn't good...

Jadeclaw, does this happen very often, or rarely?

I would place the quota at 1 out of 100 tracks that will refuse to upload.

And it happens very randomly.

However, if more than one track on a disc is dead, then it is usually a number of consecutive tracks...

I will do more tests on the weekend, so stay tuned....

But, as long as there is no new version of SonicStage, if you cannot repeat the recording DON'T upload, record in realtime off the USB.

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I've found every version of Sonic Stage Software to be quite buggy... Personally for those that are trying to use these units as an iPod sytle replacement for their music collections... good luck!!! :wacky:

The real news (and from what I've read, acutally effective) is the ability to record your own stuff without additional compression and then get it to your computer for editing digitally without any further A/D, D/A Processes or having to rely on a cheesy headphone output circuit to do justice to your recording. Goodness even if Sony did come up with some software to "upload" your recordings I don't know that I would risk signal degredation or alteration by using it!! I would much rather see .wav being encoded directly to the MiniDisc and it be accessible sort of like a .wav stored on a memory stick. Transferring your recordings in real time is not such a big pain folks! Was everyone screaming at the band to hurry up while making the recording so that you could get it on the computer faster? :laugh: For goodness sakes when you get home from your gig set your recording software to record for the lenght of the show (most programs do have a timer style record length setting.) Start the process and go to bed. When you wake up.... voila it's done. You only spent a couple of minutes in front of the computer. Take a look at HHb's portadisc unit, that's a REAL recorder (forgiving the compression of course) and it doesn't pretend that tranfer in anything other than real time is the way to go via it's USB port and this is a company that has no problem ignoring copyright protection hassles. The only systems that I'm aware of that do what most folks here seem to want are the new Hard Disc and CF recorders that cost much more money and only made their debut this year! Everyone is spending time poo pooing Sony for not doing what nobody else seems to be doing either. The New HiMD's are now an affordable portable solution for making CD quality recordings. Something that wasn't possible anywhere near this price point unitil NOW! So smile and enjoy what's been given and let our hacker friends have some time to figure out .omg and DRM now that the units themselves have the physical capacity to spit the data back out.

Just a thought....

Love and Light,

Ben

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You are missing the point somewhat.

Software should NEVER(!!!) corrupt user data. NOT EVEN when the software crashes. And I expect, that the software is tested thouroghly enough to avoid these problems. If a tool from a hobby programmer has an issue, it is one thing, but from a big corporation like Sony, I expect something better. If Sony is unable to deliver a usable and reliable software, then they should publish all specifications, so that 3rd-party suppliers or the open source community can produce something better.

And remember, the hardware is very good, it is the software, that sucks like a black hole here...

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If a tool from a hobby programmer has an issue, it is one thing, but from a big corporation like Sony, I expect something better. If Sony is unable to deliver a usable and reliable software, then they should publish all specifications, so that 3rd-party suppliers or the open source community can produce something better.

And remember, the hardware is very good, it is the software, that sucks like a black hole here...

[insert applause here]

I've been using open source software since the mid-to-late 1980s. Or custom-programmed software. Or software, back when I still used to do it, that was made by me.

In the past several years I have consistently used software that was still considered 'beta' by OSS programmers, but was rock-solid next to a lot of commercial packages.

Sony have a lot of learning by example to do.

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re: refs to 3rd party software...I use (or should I say used) Notmad to manage the files on my Creative Zen.  It was far superior to the music manager written by Creative, and it cost about $20.  I would LOVE to see those guys write something for MD.

This is assuming that Sony would liscense the protocol info to them at a reasonable cost.

With Hi-MD there is the additional issue of patent liscensing over their encryption methods, DRM, etc. - all of which would probably cost a crapload to get access to and would likely involve signing non-disclosure agreements and such.

I'm wishing I knew where to find a group of hackers who would tackle the problem for us.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The more I read, the more I think that Wave Converter will be a disappointment to most of the folks here. I spent two chats and one long phone call with Sony trying to get to the bottom of "self recording" uploads, to no avail. Sony has strongly resisted getting digital recordings out of MD and now Hi-MD; why should we believe that Wave Converter will suddenly change all that?

DRM is upon us whether we like it or not. I'd like to recast the question in different terms.

Why is Sony restricting our access to material that did not come through its DRM system? Why isn't a recording we make marked with our copyright, or at least marked as a personal "self recording?"

Of course, the answer to this is that Sony's DRM system can't know how we obtained the recording. We could have recorded the output from a CD player to obtain an illegal copy of a CD just as easily as we could have recorded a meeting or our guitar practice session. (Just ignore the fact that we could have borrowed a CD and used SonicStage to make the Hi-MD, avoiding the analog step.)

From my perspective, Sony is assuming that what it calls "self recordings" are illicit and restricting them accordingly. As a Sony customer, I find this offensive. As someone looking for the best quality recording I can get in the smallest and least expensive form factor possible, I find it frustrating.

Regarding Total Recorder, it's a creative, economical solution. However, it is a real time solution. We should be able to grab our own data off the disc at USB speeds without having to play the track.

Will

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I'm wishing I knew where to find a group of hackers who would tackle the problem for us.

http://www.nanocrew.net/blog/ :grin:

Jon Johansen cracked the drm from apple's iTunes, but is more prominent for cracking the css mechanism on dvds.

He has done all this work to use proprietary drm on alternative OSes (linux)

He was the first person i was thinking of when i started to worry about all this drm sh!t

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