DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 The primary aim for me is to achieve the double playback or recording time compared to stereo recording. I own a MZ-NH 600 since 2004-08-11. In the booklet, on page 27, there is a table showing the playback/recording times for each mode. PCM-Stereo ==> 28 Minutes on MDW80 // 94 Minutes on 1GB HI-MD HI-SP-Stereo ==> 140 Minutes on MDW80 // 475 Minutes on 1GB HI-MD HI-LP-Stereo ==> 610 Minutes on MDW80 // 2040 Minutes on 1GB HI-MD But as it was possible with the normal MD (ATRAC) to double the playback/recording time, is this also possible with HI-MD??????? According to the Table above, the MONO-mode will double the playback/recording to this new table: PCM-Mono ==> 56 Minutes on MDW80 // 188 Minutes on 1GB HI-MD HI-SP-Mono ==> 280 Minutes on MDW80 // 950 Minutes on 1GB HI-MD HI-LP-Mono ==> 1220 Minutes on MDW80 // 4080 Minutes on 1GB HI-MD Can anyone verify me these specs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 In SonicStage 2.0 i formatted my MDW-74 to Standard NET-MD. Then i uploaded my MONO-WAV-File to the MiniDisc. The Bulls*it is, that i coul NOT choose the MONO-Mode for uploading. That means, you are always forced to upload in Stereo, even if the source file is in Mono. Damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 I converted 141 Minutes of MONO-Wav into the Atrac3+ 256kbits, and uploaded to a MDW80 (Hi-MD formatted). During playback on the display there is no "Mono" shown. What happened here? Due to the fact, that the converted files (*.omg) are encrypted, i cant even see if those are converted in Stereo or Mono. My suspicion is, that those files have been converted into Stereo. But thats exactly what i dont want. I prefer one MONO channel with 256kbits, instead of 2 Stereo channels with each 128kbits from a MONO-Source file. Does anyone have further information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Does anyone know how to upload a WAV file as PCM onto the MiniDisc in Hi-MD Mode? I did not find any option in Sonic Stage 2.0 to do this. Of course in MONO i can store 56 Minutes digitally and lossles onto a standard MDW80. How to do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spare Tire Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 With the classic MD, you only had mono for SP, not for the LP2 and LP4. Just a note. Also, if the LPs are joint stereo, it's pretty much pointless to do mono of those.... i don't know if that going through encryption would really double the runtime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 With the classic MD, you only had mono for SP, not for the LP2 and LP4. Just a note.There are a lot of things in this world not available.... but that doesnt mean that those are not possible. For example: did you ever hear Stereo-MP3 with 640 kbits/s ? I bet not. But i can verify you, its possible to create a 320 kbits Mono-MP3 with lame: -b 320 -m m -o -q 0 -k It works! On MP3 Player, old DVD-Player, Winamp etc.... Compared to Stereo, this will provide a 640 kbits (2 * 320), but unfortunately i didnt find any option to do create such an powerful MP3 file using lame. Even if its possible, there is just no option given! In case of Hi-MD or Standard-MD: Here, in my opinion, Sony should make it to the primary task to achieve everything..... not only a bunch of something. Its just a configuration/ software solution problem they have just forget. There is no need of a new hardware. Just improve the software SonicStage and make it possible to create 100 % Mono files and allow to double the playback and recording time in each recording mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZosoIV Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Compared to Stereo, this will provide a 640 kbits (2 * 320), but unfortunately i didnt find any option to do create such an powerful MP3 file using lame. Even if its possible, there is just no option given! It is possible, but illogical: --freeformat -b640 -h --nspsytune -mj You don't gain much by going over 320kbps with MP3 due to its inherent format limitations: short blocks are too large for good time resolution on sharp attacks, and the long blocks are too short for good frequency resolution on certain signals. Then you have the problem with sfb21, which causes bitrate bloat when attempting to encode frequencies above 16Khz...and so on. Try fatboy or castanets at 640kbps....still not transparent. (For fun, try ATRAC Type-R...even worse!). Getting back to your original question, Sony probably choose not to include a mono mode for the simple reason that most people probably wouldn't use it. In the past, people have used mono SP to squeeze more music on non-MDLP players (or actually encode mono signals), but with Hi-LP @48kbps offering less-than stellar stereo quality and offering 45 hours on a disc, mono mode is not really needed with Hi-MD. Besides, joint stereo (M/S) already only takes up 60-70% of the bandwidth of regular LR stereo, meaning that to get the same subjective quality as Hi-LP at 48kbps, you would need about 33kbps (7/10) as opposed to 24kbps (1/2). With the option to record 45 hours of nauseating-quality audio on one disc, how much more could you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadeclaw Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 HI-LP-Stereo ==> 610 Minutes on MDW80 // 2040 Minutes on 1GB HI-MD Can anyone verify me these specs?I think, that is more than enough playing time per disc... But the real point is, Almost all low low bitrate codecs use Joint Stereo. With that, a true mono mode is useless. If a true mono signal is received, all bandwith goes into the summary channel and none goes into the difference channel. And that is the reason, why LP2/LP4/Hi-LP don't have a mono mode. The bandwith is assigned dynamically, depending on the input signal. Btw, the bandwith management in MP3 sucks, Atrac3 fares considerably better in that department - And it shows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 Today i did another test with the sonicstage2.0: As we all know that the old normal MD-Format is able to record in MONO, i tried to do the same with SonicStage2.0. First of all i formatted a MDW74 into Standard NET-MD format. I convertet a MONO-WAV file into the SP-ATRAC Format, and then uploaded to the MiniDisc. For my bad surprise, when i look in the Property of the File, the File on my HDD is 4 MB, whereas on the MiniDisc it is 8 MB, in the Software there is Stereo written. And when i playback the song, i cant see MONO-in the Display of my MD-Walkman. Now people, dont come and tell me its impossible to record in MONO on a Standard MDW in SP-Mode, because we all know that this even worked ten years ago... and my old MDS-500 and MDS-520 are gonna record 148 Minutes on a MDW74.... Can anyone tell me how to switch within SonicStage to upload the song in 100 % MONO?? I have already sent on E-Mail to Sony Germany to improe that thing in the SonicStage, but will they ever do??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadeclaw Posted August 14, 2004 Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 You can't. SonicStage is Atrac3/3plus only. And therefore, it is Stereo only. Old SP is not available and so Mono is missing as well. And since most people won't use it, Sony will probably refuse to include it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2004 SonicStage is Atrac3/3plus only. And therefore, it is Stereo only. No. It also contains ATRAC. But unfortunately, they have just forget to select MONO-Mode also. By the way: MONO is always a part of Stereo. That means, whenever a Hardware can play Stereo, it logically can always also play MONO. Do you know Russian Dolls? Just imagine, the smallest doll wont fit into the big doll ! Thants impossible ! Haha ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwakrz Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 SonicStage does not transfer Atrac to Net-MD, it can only transfer Atrac3(+) and as the 3(+) format does not have a mono feature it has to convert it to stereo. Hence your bigger image (Sony did not write mono into the feature list for Atrac3(+)) Also, the only version of Atrac3(+) that is L&R encoded is LP2, all others are encoded using M&S. This means that the only format that will encode twice as long in mono will be the LP2 format (would give same length as LP4), all others will only reach 10-20% extra space by using mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 SonicStage does not transfer Atrac to Net-MD, it can only transfer Atrac3(+) and as the 3(+) format does not have a mono feature it has to convert it to stereo. Hence your bigger image (Sony did not write mono into the feature list for Atrac3(+)) Also, the only version of Atrac3(+) that is L&R encoded is LP2, all others are encoded using M&S. This means that the only format that will encode twice as long in mono will be the LP2 format (would give same length as LP4), all others will only reach 10-20% extra space by using mono.Um. Sorry, but - SonicStage transfers using atrac when using NetMD mode. It transfers in atrac3+ when using Hi-MD mode. Trying to record in mono will not give extra time on a disc, for two reasons: 1) Sony threw away the mono mode [originally atrac SP-only] 2) All encoding rates of atrac / atrac3+ are CONSTANT BITRATE. It makes no difference if you put a mono signal in using LP2 - it always uses the same packet size, same bitrate, no matter what. No space is saved. Period. Aside from which, since there are now no mono modes [except for playback compatibility I would presume] it still gets duplicated into pseudo-stereo anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwakrz Posted August 15, 2004 Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 (photo shows SS with the record options for my NetMD, LP2 = 132kbps, LP4 = 66kbps, No Atrac listed) Original SP MD used Atrac and can only be recorded via inputs on an MD unit, MDLP used Atrac3 (as now used in NetMD. Pesudo SP is transfered from OpenMG or SS to the MD in LP2 mode & transcoded into original Atrac, something like that.) & HiMD can use Atrac3, Atrac3+ or OpenMG PCM Atrac was never offered as a transferable encryption from PC to minidisc. If you needed SP, the PC would send the Atrac3 encoded file through a transcoder (I dont know if it was on the PC or NetMD) to generate a fake SP Atrac file to allow for storage on the MD for compatability. Some time ago $ony said that to increase the quality of the LP4 they had to switch to sum & difference encoding (Mono & Stereo parts) but that LP2 still used seperately encoded channels for Left & Right as the quality was good enough. What I was trying to get at is the fact that if sony would allow it, it is possible to use the encoding engine for LP2 to allow double the time as it encodes the 2 channels independantly from each other, LP4 does not, it uses sum & difference. Because of this, encoding in mono will not bring any benifit to the available length of timein LP4. (This point should also be valid for all Atrac3+ formats) BUT SONY DO NOT ALLOW THE ABOVE so it is a mute point. Link about using Mono with LP2 here : http://www.minidisc.org/mdlpfaq.html#_q69 Link about MDLP Atrac3 formats here : http://www.minidisc.org/mdlpfaq.html#_q58 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 And thats exactly what i want back! With my new MZ-NH 600 i even prefer 160 Minutes SP-Minidisc instead of any Hi-MD Mode, that does not offer me the benefit to double the playback/record time. With a SP-MD, i even have more comatibility, because most of the people have a standard MD-Player. For example, my bro and one friend of me have one in their car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_THE_CROW Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Today i have received officially statement from SONY that the MONO-mode is not supported in the Sonic Stage aoftware. """"Eine Monoaufnahme ist leider mit der Sonic Stage nicht möglich. Sony Deutschland GmbH"""" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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