Capn002

rirsa, Thanks for the refs... that's awesome... I'm doing a full test on the MD sometime this weekend. I'll post anything interesting. -d

thanks everybody for the info... especially the stuff explaining PCM, which I haven't done any reading on. Linguistics books take it for granted without ever explaining it. But I guess what I'm really wondering is: Is there some kind of simple slide rule that would equate compressed and uncompressed qualities. Like a java-script page or something? 8bit, 11.5kHz PCM = X ATRAC = Zmp3, etc etc. -d

Thanks for the info... I'm totally not doubting you, but do you have any sources that would back this up? I'm required to use some citation other than bbs. -d

That's one of our biggest problems, IMO. We don't have a standard per se. Some journals and conferences require PCM. And everyone always complains when someone uses compressed data, but major major research has been published based off of speech recorded over telephone lines. I've been wondering the same thing, kinda. I mean, PCM is raw data, all the bits that go into the machine come out of the machine. But then there's 44.1kHz vs. 48kHz on DAT recorders (and computers add 22kHz and on down), and there's 16 vs. 8 bit settings (or something to that effect). Does anyone know how the quality of low-bit PCM compares to high-bit compressed data? Like 22.5kHz, 8-bit PCM vs. 44.1kHz, 16bit ATRAC. How would those compare? In terms of both listening quality and amount of data captured. -d

Hey moderators... would it be possible to move these to a "MD for Linguists" thread? I've seen a couple of us in various posts.

Oooh... excellent point. The soft lavender tones of my VIAO (the Mac of PCs) made me forget all about that. But, given that MD are still limited to real-time upload (for now), the mac problem goes away. I upload to Mac at school and VAIO at home (...strokes lavender keyboard lovingly). No problems. Nor will I... we're a silly people. Here's the best argument I've found to counter those with compression phobia: http://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/rob/Publications...DA2002paper.pdf But... since I'm not Ladefoged, I'm not allowed to make that call. When MD first came out, before Sony bought my soul, I lauged. "Who needs MD? We have our CDs, no one is going to go re-buy all their music... again. Sony is so lame!" That was, what? 1992 or something? Then, when Sony tried to push it as a *recordable* thing, rather than a CD replacement, I laughed. "Recordable CDs... that's the future, man. Give up Sony: you're so lame!" That was, what? 1997ish or something? Then, when I worked at a radio station, we switched over to MDs to play our commercials. I was like, "What? MD is still around? Why hasn't that died yet? We don't need no stinking MDs, we've got our carts! Sony is so lame!" And then I used them. They blew carts out of the water. This was like 2000. Then, I bought one. . . . . .and the heavens opened up, and I saw the light, and I have been set free. In short, no, I don't think they have any chance of dying out anytime soon. I mean, microcassettes are still around forchrissake. And as long as *line-in* exists, the current state of the art won't matter. PCM is PCM no matter what else might be available. Am I rambling? -d

Yes. The Marantz is actually 2.88lbs, not 3lbs. I was off by about 2oz. The price comparison works if you go by suggested retail price. For the NH1 that's $399, for the N707 that's $199, for the Marantz that's $899. You paid just under $600 for Marantz? great, way to price hunt. I paid $30 for my MZ-N707. I paid full price for the NH1 because I needed it quickly. Regardless, my original statement was not exaggeration. And anyway, on a student's budget (or even a linguist's budget in general), even that extra $220 is a month's worth of groceries. It really does matter. Not to mention that a 1gig compactFlash card = $140 whereas a HiMD 1gig disc goes for about $10. Marantz durability sounds awesome. It's funny, I was going to comment on MD durability over DAT. People have to treat their DATs like a crystal baby. Seriously, one of my profs wraps his in a diaper. Compared to DATs, MDs are like lead pipes. I just toss mine in a bag and go. I've been treating it with as much care as I treat any Walkman, and it delivers the same quality as when I first bought it. But seriously, if I dropped it, esp in muddy water, I'd cry and assume all was lost. Wow for marantz. Wow. That link was awesome. You've got me here. No contest. That's a good thing considering how expensive they are :rasp: Sadly, they do. They are *still* the standard in linguistics, even though they're big, bulky, you can never find tapes, etc etc etc. Actually, most of my post was supposed to be regarding DAT vs. MD. Because, as a linguist, those are about the only choices that linguini has. We linguists are a superstitious, tradition-based, pseudo-scientific lot. Therefore, since not many people have been using CF for fieldwork, not many people will, and those that do will open themselves up to having their work questioned because of it. This is what happened when MD first came out as an alternative to DAT or CC (tape). But enough people were enough satisfied that they're now commonplace. (but cf. my original post re:acoustic analysis). I've never had anything but good times with Sony Support. But then again, and maybe I should have said this at the very beginnig... I'm writing this msg on a VIAO computer, while listening to music over my Sony cdplayer, through my Sony receiver, while my Sony TV is on mute... and I have a Clie! But for real, for linguists right now there are only two real options, DAT or MD. And the MD is still sniggerd at by phoneticians, so be prepared to defend yourself, though hopefully the HiMD PCM mode will quash this. Ladefoged (in Phonetic Data Analysis) actually doesn't even mention anything but DAT or recording directly to computer. Silly silly linguists. -d

Thanks kurisu! It's fun to be here!

On the contrary. I am also a linguist and I would probably definitely go with MD. Maybe you already know this, but the whole "linguists must use uncompressed recordings only" thing is a bit of a lie. First, just compare the physicality of the options. 3lbs for the Marantz, 11oz for a Sony DAT, 3 oz for a MD. Which do *you* want to lug through the rainforest? Second is price. You could buy two or three MD recorders for the price of one Marantz or DATrecorder. Ridiculous. Third, I can't say anything about the compactflash cards, but DATs are much much easier to destroy than a minidisc. Finally, it depends on your purposes for recording. If you're recording just to make transcriptions, like for Conversation Analysis or similar, MD's are a beauty. Then, either keep the convos on MD and transcribe directly from that, or upload (see other threads for various discussion of this matter) and transcribe from computer. If you're doing it for anything else except acoustic analysis, again, go MD. ATRAC uses psychoacoustic based compression. So, what's getting cut out (of language/speech), is what we can't hear anyway. It is information that is NOT PERCEPTUALLY SIGNIFICANT (or even *perceivable* at all (in theory)). Now... if it's for acoustic analysis, then some real issues do arise. I've found as much information to support using ATRAC files for acoustic analysis as I've found against it. The simple truth is, linguists (phoneticians especially) mostly just assume that compression is bad. There aren't many actual studies that support this claim (one, in fact, and it's sketchy work), and I've found two studies that directly refute it. Simply, if you're analyzing vowel formants, durations, etc, MD is wonderful and even ATRAC compression is fine. We don't need PCM. Wm Labov even says so on his website. For transients or other highFQ stuff, ATRAC is not so good. DAT and CompactFlash recorders don't have this problem..... But... the new HiMD's fix this. You can record PCM without any loss. Yipiee. And while you can't move it directly to the computer, blah blah blah. If you're a linguist, you're probably going to be listening to these recordings over and over again anyway, so real-time *uploading* is totally not a problem. And really, MD's are so sexy. (And they double as a toy!) I've been using a MZ-N707 (recording in ATRAC even) for vowel analysis, and it works great. I did, however, succumb to the pressure for PCM and tonight I bought the new HiMD NH1. It should be here on Friday, and then I'll be doing acutal field work with it next week. I'll post reports when I get back. Don't be silly... buy MD. -d