Ambient Recording Help please.

[kabooky]

Ok- I do a lot of digital music creation, and I am now looking for a high quality stereo recorder. I am considering getting a hi-md recorder, maybe the new NHF-800. I am wanting to capture primarily weather ambience, such as rain on the vinyl roof of my jeep or even crickets in the woods. So I am asking your help in opinions of the best configuration of stereo microphone/preamps for recording fairly quiet, high quality, full frequency range, ambience.

[glauber]

I'm no specialist (so take this with a grain of salt), but i'd get a good amplified microphone. Sound Professionals is what i use, but i'm sure Reactive is good too, etc. Just get a good expensive preamp or a preamplified microphone with a good expensive preamp. Anyhing less than, say, $200 is probably not good enough.

Then connect that to the line input of your recorder, not the mic input. The idea is to bypass the (often crappy) internal microphone amp.

You might want to look into stuff like the Edirol, or one of the new non-md recorders that are able to record uncompressed (e.g. WAV) audio. MD is very nice, very easy to use, but not the best when you want to move your recordings to a computer. Hi-MD is promise more than reality right now. It may end up being a great thing, but on the other hand, Sony is also very capable of dropping it and leaving you with useless expensive hardware. I'd say give it a few years to mature or die.

[A440]

Hi-MD does record .wav and with Marcnet's Hi-MDRenderer that file can be digitally copied into your computer. Sony is also supposed to come out with its own .wav converter this fall.

http://www.marcnetsystem.co.uk/

Get a good preamp, as described above. Also, look at mic specs on S/N ratio, and find the highest number you can, to give you the lowest self-noise for quiet sounds.

Crickets , you say? Try this: http://www.reactivesounds.com/soundpack.php

and select "open country" under Sound Effects.

and this thread:

http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t...ghlight=cricket

[Martin of Brune]

I have been reading this thread in order to choose a stereo microphone.

I like what I hear about the Auris stereo mic.

However, I am not clear about powering it. It is a condensor microphone and needs power it seems. Will a hi-md supply the power (and does this work effectively) or will I definately have to buy a power supply/pre-amp.

Thanks.

[dex Otaku]

MDs and HiMDs have "plug-in power" on the mic inputs. You can get additional headroom [i.e. record higher SPL] with powered mics by using a battery box or external powered preamp, though.

I have the SP-TFB-2 mic from Sound Professionals and they work quite well with themic preamp built into my NH700. The Auris mics are of similar ilk [close to the same sensitivity and peak SPL] so should woud just fine as well.

If you're going to be recording extremely loud sounds a battbox or preamp would be needed, though.

[kabooky]

thanks for all the feedback here-

while I agree partially with glauber, i was under the impression that sonys hi-md recorders have an at least decent, not a"crappy" internal mic amp.

I guess my new question is this, -the auris stereo mic and the soundprof/ binaural mic both have a s/n ration of 58db, is this sufficient?

And would anyone who happens to own a hi-md recorder and a similar mic be able to tell me if the combination can record ambience well?

[glauber]

while I agree partially with glauber, i was under the impression that sonys hi-md recorders have an at least decent, not a"crappy" internal mic amp.

Crappy may be too strong a word. They're under extreme constraints for size and power consumption, which limit what they can do.

With the Sharp 190, it seems to have 2 levels of preamp. The settings go from 1 to 30. Up to 20, it shows a letter "L" (low), over 20, that letter changes to "H" (high), and the hiss kicks in. There's also a small pause (interruption in the sound) when you go from L to H, which leads me to believe that a secondary preamp or maybe a different circuit altogether kicks in at that point.

[dex Otaku]

The jump in hiss is just the preamp switching from low to high gain. It's like switching a Sony from low to high sensitivity - everything gets [pre]amplified with higher gain, so everything - including the amp's and the mic's self-noise - gets louder.

[glauber]

Thanks, this makes sense. In my case, the hiss is present even if the microphone is turned off.

[dex Otaku]

while I agree partially with glauber, i was under the impression that sonys hi-md recorders have an at least decent, not a"crappy" internal mic amp.

"Compromised" would be a better word. For high-gain applications, like recording extremely quiet sounds, it's better to use an outboard preamp with a much higher S:N ratio [i.e. lower self-noise].

I guess my new question is this, -the auris stereo mic and the soundprof/ binaural mic both have a s/n ration of 58db, is this sufficient?

It's not just the S:N ratio you should be looking at. Dynamic range is just as important.

Consider for a moment that S:N and dynamic range are different things. Most modern recordings have very high S:N ratios but -very- low dynamic ranges, often less than 25-30dB.

This means that even with a rather poor mic setup you will be making recording that are far more dynamic than any of the music you probably listen to.

And would anyone who happens to own a hi-md recorder and a similar mic be able to tell me if the combination can record ambience well?

As I said, I have the SP-TFB-2 mic and I have used them for recording ambience very successfully a number of times now.

Their sensitivity has actually surprised me a number of times. In the city, for example, it's almost impossible to escape background noise such a s traffic, trains, etc. - even while sealed indoors.

I have made some recordings such as that of a train passing by where the dynamic range is .. natural-sounding, shall we say. I mean - I have to turn my amp up all the way to hear the 'normal' bits at a normal level, which makes the train as loud as a train actually is. This is a rather foreign experience for anyone who is mostly accustomed to listening to studio-recorded music. The idea of actually having a dynamic range greater than 60dB is strange at best. Even classical recordings don't usually make use of the full dynamic range available.

What setup you should use depends on what the recordings are to be used for, too, though. Binaural mics are usually meant [if actually using them in a binaural config] for recording for headphone listening. You can also use them for recording for speaker playback [it's the angle the mics sit at that mace the difference, binaurals face straight out to the sides, other stereo patterns usually face straight forward or at a angle to each other that faces mostly forward].

If you want to make recordings that you can mix with music, etc. I'd suggest using an M/S stereo mic or another coincident combination. The fact that they come as a single fixed point of reference is of tremendous use, since it makes for consistency. M/S mics also mix down to mono a lot better than many other [stereo] types. This makes recording sound effects to be placed in other recordings much easier. [as a side-note, you can still do this by using just one side of a pair of "binaurals," but since most of them are omnidirectional you can't get really directed recordings out of them as you can with other types of mics.]

[glauber]

Most commercial recordings (probably all?) are compressed, to reduce the dynamic range. That makes for easier listening in noisy situations (e.g. car), and more efficient radio broadcast.

[dex Otaku]

Most commercial recordings (probably all?) are compressed, to reduce the dynamic range. That makes for easier listening in noisy situations (e.g. car), and more efficient radio broadcast.

Most commercial recordings are, yes. I'd agree to probably all but those of classical music, or audiophile series records.

Pop music is generally compressed extremely hard [bit-pushed] now so that CDs will sound as loud as possible. To me, most music mastered this way just sounds like crap; it's harsh, strident, and hurts to listen to after too much exposure.

I like to try and preserve a natural-sounding dynamic range, personally. But then, it depends on what the recording is of. I'd still compress music recordings, but not to the extent that is common nowadays.

[glauber]

Yes. Me too. Gentle compression can make music really stand out, but it's better not to do it too much.

With vinyl, cassette and radio, you have to compress, because of the limitations of the media. CD and other digital media can express a lot more dynamic range.

[kabooky]

yes- i agree. also, i did not mean to give the idea i was recording extremely quiet stuff, or anything requiring a huge amount of trim or sensitivity. The music I mix is not ideally for headphone use, so no binaurals are not the kind of thing I want. I thought about a single point stereo mic, but figured I could have all sorts of functionality from dual monos.

so dex, you don't use any external amp? just the md recorder and the mic? If this is true, then from what your telling me, the 800 or 900, and i'd probably opt for the auris stereo mic, would do the job?

[dex Otaku]

The only things I've had difficulty recordnig were nature sounds, such as birdcalls from several metres away. The results were usable but having the preamp on high gain [high sensitivity] meant an increase in noise - though it was hard to tell what was what that day, as the breeze through the trees sounded much like amp hiss by itself.

Dual monos are highly versatile, yes. Still, keep in mind that mics of that type are usually omnis, and will not reject background sounds at all. Careful mic positioning is required to get realistic recordings.

Were I to do more of the "nature sound" ambient recording I would prefer to use an outboard preamp. The only reason I didn't get one to begin with was that my budget is severely constrained.

The other reasons to have an outboard preamp are the ability to record louder sounds, and the ability to record sounds louder [hooray for ambiguity].

First, since they usually run on 9V batteries, they can provide higher bias voltage to the mics - meaning the ability to handle higher SPL without distortion.

Second, external preamps usually have much higher headroom in terms of signal amplification, meaning it's harder to drive them into clipping than it is with the built-in preamps on MDs or HiMDs. This means you can send a much higher-level signal to the line-in of your recorder, recording signals higher above the noise floor than through the internal preamp.

As I said though, for general-purpose recording, the built-ins work quite well.

[glauber]

IMHO single point stereo gives a much more realistic stereo image. With dual monos, to get good stereo separation you need good physical separation. If you have 2 cardioids, you can put them in a 60% angle and it's similar to a single-point stereo setup, but clumsier.

Using a directional mic lets you get more of what you want to record and less of the surrounding ambiance. But maybe the ambiance is what you want.

It's always a compromise. Buy both kinds.

Radio Shack used to have an excellent little micophone pair (dual mono omni) for $17. It's a pity they don't have that anymore.

[kabooky]

Alright, Well I think I am satisfied. Last question, Is there a fairly high quality preamp I can get for under 100 bucks?

[glauber]

Sound Professionals:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-PASM-2 ($200, including preamp and microphones -- this is the new version of the microphone i have, with more features; i haven't used this model, but i like the one i have)

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-PREAMP ($180, preamp only)

Reactive sounds (i haven't used them but they have a good reputation and their banner is on top of the forum :grin:): $200, very nice preamp

http://www.reactivesounds.com/spa2.php