MD / SP mic Recording Problem(s)

[javertim]

Specifications:

MD Recorder – Sony Net MD MZ-N707

Microphone #1 (old mic) – Radio Shack Stereo tie-clip mic

Microphone #2 (new mic) – Sound Professionals BMC-3 (low sensitivity)

(Link to new mic: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/...d/item/SP-BMC-3)

Battery Module – Sound Professionals SPSB-6 (with bass roll-off)

(Link to battery module: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-SPSB-6)

My Problem(s):

*** Both scenarios were recorded via the “Mic” jack on my MD recorder ***

Before this past weekend, I have been using an old Radio Shack mic, as listed above. This one ran on a simple button-cell battery (you know, the kind of battery one usually purchases for a watch), and therefore didn’t provide much power on its own. However, when recording at loud situations with the recorder on Auto-Recording-Volume and with the AVLS *on*, I would only get a fairly minimal amount of clipping during the loudest sections.

However, just this past weekend, I decided to give my newly purchased SP BMC-3 mic a “test drive,” along with my SP-SPSB-6 battery module. Mind you, I was recording the exact same event with the same recorder settings, although, of course, my battery module was set to a certain bass roll-off level – I believe it was at 69Hz (or 95Hz at the most). I used the same blank media (the Sony Gold minidiscs), and everything was generally very much the same as with the first scenario. But then, when listening later, I discovered that with my new mic and battery box, the recording had come out with a LOT more clipping than it had with the same event recorded with the Radio Shack mic and button-battery support. Even certain “dialogue” elements (without the heavy music) came out with a bit of overload.

So, here’s the dilemma ... I am one of those who believe that technology and cost are very much related, so obviously I am doing something wrong here. A friend who is also an amateur recorder suggested that I switch my recorder to MANUAL-Recording-Volume and turn that all the way up. He also suggested that, along with this setting, I should switch the battery module’s bass roll-off up as far as it can go (which would be 888Hz). Is this good advice? I have tried doing this in practice, but nothing at home will ever really imitate a live event setting.

Also, I have been experimenting with recording via “Line In.” When I have tried doing this at home, cranking the stereo up VERY loud on a Metal channel, the recorded sound comes out rather low, with only 3-5 volume bars lit up on my recorder/player. However, after importing this sound into my computer and adjusting the dB there, I have come out with a very clear recording.

The only problem I would have with Line-In recording would be that the kind of events I like to record mixes loud music with interspersed dialogue, and I don’t know if my mic, via Line-In, would pick up the dialogue. Additionally, I’m not sure if my Net MD model (the MZ-N707) supports mic-via-Line-In recording, or if the Line-In is supposed to be only for a digital signal.

Any advice / support would be very welcome ... I have been recording for almost 2 years now, but I am still learning. I would like to get better at recording as I go along.

Thanks! :-)

Tim

[dex Otaku]

Did you have the battbox plugged into the mic in or the line in of your recorder? You should probably be using the line in.

If you had it plugged into the mic in, you were doubtless overloading the preamp, resulting in the clipping you got.

With moderately loud sound and the battbox plugged into the line-in you should be getting more than enough signal for a clear recording.

No. Don't set the bass rolloff as high as it will go. The problem is most likely overloading the mic preamp, not that the bass is too loud.

Manual recording volume is a good thing to use. Compression [generally] = bad. You can always compress a recording afterwards, but you can't undo the effects of compression once it's done. [Compression i.e. AGC]

I might be wrong about this, but 3-5 bars should be up to almost the -12dB mark, meaning you're getting good levels. The reference mark on the rec level scale on MDs, the one in the middle of the scale, that's -12dBfs. It's a relatively safe spot to pick as a peak or average level depending on how dynamic what you're recording is.

I wouldn't worry too much about the music/dialogue thing with line-in recording. Your MD recorder has a high enough S:N ratio and dynamic range that even though the dialogue will be much quieter, it should still be clear as a bell. You can simply compress those passages later while editing.

Incidentally, if you use manual record levels - that difference between the music and dialogue represents a reference for natural dynamic range.

[javertim]

Thanks for the advice! :-)

I have always plugged my Battery box into the MIC input jack. However, even when I did this with my older, MUCH cheaper mic from Radio Shack, I got a lot less clipping ... So I just don't understand why the SP Mic / Battery Module combo ($130) is performing sub-par to my old Mic ($30) that ran on a button-cell battery.

Also, Is there any way to set up my recorder to default to Manual-Recording-Volume as opposed to "Auto"? Additionally, does the AVLS setting really play a big factor in the recording process? I mean, would I do better to turn them on or keep them off?

Thanks Again!

Tim

P.S.: As always, more advice is welcome! :-)

[dex Otaku]

Your old RadioShack mic uses a lower bias voltage and hence puts out a lower-level signal. The battbox puts 9V bias on your new mics, which are likely also a lot more sensitive than your old one, so the same SPL will make for a higher output level going to the recorder. I hope that made sense.

No, there's no way to make Sony's recorders default to manual rec levels. Some of the pro units and older recorders actually had switches for this, or would go directly to manual levels if you held the record slider for 2+ seconds, but newer recorders have to be set via menus etc. It's a pain, but you do get used to doing it. Manual levels aren't needed for all applications, either. I never use manual for voice recordings, for instance.

AVLS only affects playback levels on the headphone output. I would recommend leaving it off at all times.

[javertim]

Okay, everything makes sense! :-)

Just one more question ... And this is something that I am not able to locate in the manual ... When I set the recorder to MANUAL-Recording-Volume, do I just turn the regular volume control all the way up? Is that how you adjust the levels. Also, when I put the recorder on "hold," this means I will not be able to accidentally turn the volume down during recording, correct? I have tried doing tests like this, but I notice that I am not getting a "skip" or "break" as mentioned in other posts, in relation to turning the recording volume up and down.

Thanks! :-)

Tim

[JeffS]

the volume control while recording will only affect the volume of the headphone out that you are using to listen through. To adjust the levels you have to pause the recording and then I believe the volume keys control the recording level.

double check your manual to be sure, it's been a while since I've recorded anything that wasn't optical.

-Jeff

[dex Otaku]

With the 707 yes - you have to have the unit on pause to change levels - but I don't know if it's the volume control or the track back/fwd keys that change levels. Check your manual.

[javertim]

Just to note ... I tried it and you do, indeed, use the FWD (+volume) and BACK (-volume) buttons to adjust the recording volume.

Okay, so this is great ... Everything seems to be working fine ... Except for ONE thing. My recorder is automatically adding tracks in, and it is not set up to do so (I've checked all my settings). What happens is, I will record via Line-In, with pleanty of signal, and every 15-20 seconds, a new track begins. Now, this is not a huge problem because it doesn't affect the "through play" of the recording, but what if I want to add my own tracks? And what happens if the recorder adds TOO many tracks to the minidisc? Will the recorder stop at some point because of too many?

Thanks Again! You guys are WONDERFUL! :-)

Tim

[dex Otaku]

I'm not sure that all Sonys do it, but most, when recording from the line-in, automatically make track marks if levels basically go silent for longer than about 2 seconds.

The player will stop recording automatically if the limit for track #s is reached. I believe that would be 99 tracks.

[javertim]

Hrm ... well, that's no good. I mean, I know I'm testing at my house and it's going to be a lot quieter THERE than in a live situation, but I still don't want to take the chance of not getting everything. Do you know of any way to make sure the Line-In recording is constantly getting a signal? I mean, I know I could constantly tap the mic or something like that, but I would prefer to find a hands-off way that will not effect the recording quality.

Yet again, my gratitude. :-)

Tim

Edited to Note: The tracks are sometimes being added in DURING the recorded sound. Therefore, I obviously have a signal, right? I mean, if I playback and the track occurs right in the middle of some test-recorded music, that would most certainly mean there was not a loss of signal at the track break ... Or am I missing something?

[techristian]

I posted this in another thread. It may be helpful.

oK

I have been doing some reading. Some have said that the N510 will record LINE LEVEL source. This is very good. I may still be able to find my old Realistic PHONO pre-amp. It runs on a single 9 volt battery and is stereo. Because it uses RCA PHONO plugs, I would only need to make an adapter to fit whatever microphone and another adapter for the MZ-N510 input.

If I can't find the old pre-amp , PAiA electronics makes a pre-amp kit for only around $25. I built PAiA kits since the 70's so that isn't a problem for me.

Dan

http://etnot.com/ootw.html