Timer Recording Using Md And Himd.

[cfairfowl]

I have designed and am in the process of having made a cradle for my MZ NH-700 which will enable timer controlled recordings from a DAB Tuner to HiMD Walkman when I am out. In the absence of HiMD Decks with a timer switch and with a requirement for long recording times I decided to design a unit that will enable this. The cradle will have a small electronic circuit and two solenoids controlled by a simple 7 day timer, one solenoid will push the REC button and then after a small delay the other solenoid will push the Play/Enter button. The NH-700 will start recording. When the DAB tuner is switched off the signal (optical Toslink) to the MD walkman will be cut and the walkman will PAUSE for 5 minutes and then shut down. When the timer operates again the process will repeat.

This is how I intend it to work

Start:- Timer will power up the DAB tuner and circuit, this will operate the solenoids then release the solenoids and the MD unit will continue to record until End.

End:- Timer will cut power to tuner (optical signal will be lost) walkman will go into PAUSE mode then switch off after 5 minutes. Wait for Start.

This will enable up to 7 hour and 55 minutes of HiSP recording or longer using LP.

I have been using a Timer and SONY MDS JB940 for timer recordings over the last 4 years but have used reel to reel since 1974. There is some pretty good stuff on the old wireless and now with the arrival of HiMD, a complete concert can be recorded using the higher quality HiSP offers. For example, the BBC Proms, Performance on 3, Andy Kershaw, Late Junction, whispering Bob Harris etc. etc. After recording the whole program it can then be edited and labeled. I normally edit as I listen to the playback but rarely use the labeling feature (I use post-its) as I normally re use the disc.

I will post some pictures of the unit when it is finished in the unlikely event someone is interested. If it works as well as I expect (it should) I will supply drawing, circuit diagram and component list should anyone else have a requirement for a unit like this.

Has anyone else tried this sort of thing? If so I would be interested to hear about it.

There are lots of people out there who when they hear the word MiniDisc screw their faces up and start... the problem with MiniDisc is the compression etc. etc. Not a problem for me, I can't hear the compression I can only hear the music. Has anyone heard the compression coming from an MD by the by? Anyway, I am sure you will agree that the advantages of MiniDisc far out way the disadvantages and MDs are getting better and better. Thanks to MDs I get to listen to so much stuff from the wireless I would normally miss. Reel to Reel is good but try carrying one around all day.

Edited February 27, 2005 by cfairfowl

[ROMBUSTERS]

this sounds like a very unique and creative idea! I hope it goes well and be sure to post some pictures!

[KJ_Palmer]

Good luck with your project. I hope it works - be sure to post the pictures up!

I'll just be happy recording DAB in SP on my standard deck until they bring a decent Hi-MD deck out. It doesn't take long to transfer to Hi-MD and using an optical link (essentially) retains the quality.

Personally speaking, about hearing the effects of compression, for music it certainly is noticeble particularly at LP4 (but that's still more than OK for speech). LP2 still sounds compressed, but to most people with ordinary equipment is fine for music.

At Hi-SP or SP it's all but indistinguishable from CD quality (in my opinion). Hi-LP seems to be about the quality of LP4, so I wouldn't really use it for music...

[ROMBUSTERS]

Good luck with your project. I hope it works - be sure to post the pictures up!

I'll just be happy recording DAB in SP on my standard deck until they bring a decent Hi-MD deck out. It doesn't take long to transfer to Hi-MD and using an optical link (essentially) retains the quality.

Personally speaking, about hearing the effects of compression, for music it certainly is noticeble particularly at LP4 (but that's still more than OK for speech). LP2 still sounds compressed, but to most people with ordinary equipment is fine for music.

At Hi-SP or SP it's all but indistinguishable from CD quality (in my opinion). Hi-LP seems to be about the quality of LP4, so I wouldn't really use it for music...

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ya but depending on the song HiLP can actually sound fairly good, although no matter what you choose it'll still sound like crap compaired to PCM/HiSP

[KJ_Palmer]

I agree - and Hi-LP is useful for squeezing those last few tracks on an Hi-SP compilation, but the difference is still noticeable. I'd certainly avoid the 48kbps wherever possible, but again, I've used that too...

[ROMBUSTERS]

yes never use 48 but i still cant understand how you can go from HiSP to HiLP and be happy, that loss in quality is sticks out very much

[sebbleton]

Sounds like an interesting project - how much control will you have over the force applied by the solenoids in your circuit?

[cfairfowl]

Sounds like an interesting project - how much control will you have over the force applied by the solenoids in your circuit?

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Rubber in the end of the push rod tube will prevent damage but I have measured the force required to operate the buttons and the throw of the solenoid required to give a safe operating force.

I never use LP2, LP4 or HiLP for music. if I required longer recording times I would use reel to reel or hard disc. I have used LP4 for BBC Radio 4 and it is quite good enough and nono is ok too.

Edited February 28, 2005 by cfairfowl

[etotheix]

Sounds like a neat project!

Incidentally, a Hi-Fi VCR can work great for recording radio programs. Put it in EP mode and you can get six hours of recording time and the recording quality is quite good--much better than HI-LP.

Edited March 1, 2005 by etotheix

[cfairfowl]

Sound like a neat project!

Incidentally, a Hi-Fi VCR can work great for recording radio programs.  Put it in EP mode and you can get six hours of recording time and the recording quality is quite good--much better than HI-LP.

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Are trying to compare VHS with HiMD?

I have been there, done that, I used a VHS machine, with an FM tuner connected to the cable TV aerial socket and a pair of active loudspeakers for two and a half years when I worked in Norway from 1995.

I have to admit it worked very well and I was able to listen to programs I would have missed. Try editing VHS tape? Can you get one to run on 1 AA size battery for 10 hours plus? and just one other minor point, have you ever tried carrying a VHS machine, Battery and tapes around for 6 hours?

Come to think of it, I could have used a mule to carry the VHS machine, car battery, power converter and tapes when I went walking in the mountains.

We need to be a bit sensible when making comparisons, we should look at ALL the Advantages and Disadvantages and sometime we have to compromise a bit.

Listening to a master multitrack taperecording would also be better than HiMD.

I don't entirely agree with your views on VHSsssssssssssssssssssssssss v Hi-LP sound quality but I will happily go along with the majority view on this.

Edited March 1, 2005 by cfairfowl

[imkidd57]

...one solenoid will push the REC button and then after a small delay the other solenoid will push the Play/Enter button.

Can you not just manually put the unit into REC-Pause mode before you leave, then there's just one solenoid needed to push the Play/Enter button. Come to think of it, isn't there a 'line-level detect' facility once the unit is in REC-Pause mode?

[cfairfowl]

Can you not just manually put the unit into REC-Pause mode before you leave, then there's just one solenoid needed to push the Play/Enter button. Come to think of it, isn't there a 'line-level detect' facility once the unit is in REC-Pause mode?

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Thanks for the interest, Like I said the MZ NH-700 (and all the other Hi-MD machines as far as I know) completely shut down after 5 minutes when left in Pause mode. That was the first thing I tried when this project was started. I put the machine in REC mode and recorded from the optical signal for a few minutes then cut the signal (switched off the Tuner).

The machine went into Pause mode and after 5 minutes the machine shut down completely.

I then fed the optical signal to the machine again (I turned the Tuner back on) the machine would not resume and It would not operate again until the REC+PLAY buttons where pushed again.

The Pause Mode route failed.

I have also looked at cutting the command unit lead and operating it from timer controlled relays but the command units do not have a record function button. Also my first choice of machine was the NH1 but it has a SLIDER button for recording and this would be difficult to operate with a conventional solenoid. The MZ NH-700 was chosen because it has 2 push buttons.

The mechanical cradle is almost complete – slight modifications required that’s all. I shall post some pictures of my Timer cradle when it is ready showing how the NH-700 sits in it.

I will post more when the electronics are installed and working. I will test the unit and report my findings to the forum in case others are interested and may have a use for one of these devices.

I have to live with the fact that there are no decent HiMD decks on the market and the only deck that is, is not suitable i.e. no timer switch. I like the HiMD format, the system and what it offers me in terms of flexibility and potabiliry. I refuse to be defeated by the lack of ONE function, I will instead find a way round it.

Sony knows that they will have to defeat me in my quest or loose the battle…….

I shall fight them at the battery, I shall fight them at the signal, I shall fight them on the button, in the off position and in the Pause mode. I shall never surrender………..

Sorry! I got a bit carried away there, too much Winston Churchill on Radio 4.

No doubt in the future a HiMD deck will turn up with a timer switch but I want one NOW and I am not going to wait years until a machine turns up.

The MD walkman machines are NOT designed for timer operation and cannot be modified to do so. The main reason I use recording equipment is so I cal listen to the radio without having to be sitting next to the bloody thing all the time. I also like live performances of classical music for example - “Through the night on BBC Radio 3” at 2:00 am in the morning. I make no apology for being a boring old fart. I know they are recorded but they still sound bloody marvellous to me.

[etotheix]

Are trying to compare VHS with HiMD?

...

Come to think of it, I could have used a mule to carry the VHS machine, car battery, power converter and tapes when I went walking in the mountains.

...

We need to be a bit sensible when making comparisons, we should look at ALL the Advantages and Disadvantages and sometime we have to compromise a bit.

...

Listening to a master multitrack taperecording would also be better than HiMD.

I don't entirely agree with your views on VHSsssssssssssssssssssssssss v Hi-LP sound quality but I will happily go along with the majority view on this.

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Whoh there cfairfowl. The VCR thing was just an incidental comment. I said your project sounded neat, and I meant it.

A lot of people aren't aware that you can record radio with a VCR or how good the sound quality of a *Hi-Fi* VCR is. (non-Hi-Fi VCR's do sound like shit, by the way). It's not quite as good as PCM or Hi-SP, but it is far better than Hi-LP.

If you have a Hi-Fi VCR, compare for yourself. Typical audio specs for a Hi-Fi VCR are actually pretty decent (20Hz-20kHz, 80db or better S/N ratio). But you need to make sure to connect directly to the L and R audio inputs of the deck -- using the cable TV aerial socket will not work. The audio won't be recorded to the Hi-Fi tracks if you do this; instead, it will be recorded on the same very low quality track that a non-Hi-Fi VCR uses.

Once recorded to the VCR, audio can be re-recorded to minidisc for mule-free portability. Like I said, I think what you're doing is really cool. In fact, it's posts like yours -- people experimenting, finding innovative uses for their minidisc recorders -- that keeps me coming back to this forum. But not everyone is going have the skill or the inclination to build a device like the one you've designed.

Edited March 1, 2005 by etotheix

[cfairfowl]

Whoh there cfairfowl. The VCR thing was just an incidental comment. I said your project sounded neat, and I meant it.

A lot of people aren't aware that you can record radio with a VCR or how good the sound quality of a *Hi-Fi* VCR is. (non-Hi-Fi VCR's do sound like shit, by the way).  It's not quite as good as PCM or Hi-SP, but it is far better than Hi-LP.

If you have a Hi-Fi VCR, compare for yourself.  Typical audio specs for a Hi-Fi VCR are actually pretty decent (20Hz-20kHz, 80db or better S/N ratio). But you need to make sure to connect directly to the L and R audio inputs of the deck --  using the cable TV aerial socket will not work. The audio won't be recorded to the Hi-Fi tracks if you do this; instead, it will be recorded on the same very low quality track that a non-Hi-Fi VCR uses.

Once recorded to the VCR, audio can re-recorded to minidisc for mule-free portability. Like I said, I think what you're doing is really cool. In fact, it's posts like yours -- people experimenting, finding innovative uses for their minidisc recorders -- that keeps me coming back to this forum. But not everyone is going have the skill or the inclination to build a device like the one you've designed.

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Etotheix, sorry if I sounded a bit short with you old chap. I did use a Phillips High End NICAM VHS (we are talking 1995 High End here). I used the Audio L and R inputs for the FM Tuner and the Audio L and R outputs for the active loudspeakers and like I said it was O.K. It is a pain in the neck transferring stuff in real time, I did that when I copied Radio 4 programs from Reel to Reel to Cassette Prior to me discovering MD. My first portable was Stereo and Mono only, the 2 hours plus recording (mono) from my JBS 940 using a timer was such a convenience. It freed up the Reel to reel machine for music from Radio 3. I have to admit though, I was impressed with that old Phillips (it is still working today) when we played Walt Disney’s Tarzan Video through the SONY Dolby Cinema Sound Receiver (60W x 5).

Just to give you an idea, I record Radio 4 for 2 hrs 15 mins. Mon. to Fri., 4 hrs. Sat and 2 hrs. Sun. I listen to the MDs in the car and at work during the day.

I also record a lot of music from Radio 3 (again using a timer) on my Studer A807 Mk. II and Hard Disc. I am now using HiSP for Radio 3 because it is excellent.

As you can appreciate transferring that lot would be a nightmare! I hardly keep anything I record, I reuse the tapes, MDs etc. because if I kept all the stuff I recorded I wouldn’t have any room in my house. I don’t watch TV and buy few CDs, I prefer Live performances from radio 3 (even though they are sometimes recoded).

I have been doing this since 1976 when I had a Revox A77, an old wind-up clock timer and a Pioneer TX9500 FM tuner. I have also had an Akai GX656 (all fur coat and no knickers) and 2 Revox B77’s before the Studer. I have also tried more tuners than I care to remember but still using my Tannoy loudspeakers after all this time (I bought them in 1977) and won’t part with them. The Studer is well OTT for what I use it for but what the hell, it’s a nice to have sort of thing. I love the picture of the chimp by the way, reminds me of one of my daughters.

Edited March 1, 2005 by cfairfowl

[Malcolm Stewart]

For the last few weeks, I've been recording the BBC's R3 "Late Junction" using one of my MiniDisc recorders, but tonight I thought that a meeting I was attending might over-run. (It did.) I decided to try the timer recorder control in the editing software which I've been using, PolderbitS Sound Recorder and Editor.

I connected my radio to my PC, amd left it all running whilst I was out. It worked fine - when I got home, the first 20 minutes had been recorded to my HDD, and I just let it run on to the end.

I now have a choice - leave as a .wav file on my PC, or transfer to my NH900 at whatever quality I choose.

[cfairfowl]

For the last few weeks, I've been recording the BBC's R3 "Late Junction" using one of my MiniDisc recorders, but tonight I thought that a meeting I was attending might over-run.  (It did.)  I decided to try the timer recorder control in the editing software which I've been using, PolderbitS Sound Recorder and Editor. 

I connected my radio to my PC, amd left it all running whilst I was out.  It worked fine - when I got home, the first 20 minutes had been recorded to my HDD, and I just let it run on to the end.   

I now have a choice - leave as a .wav file on my PC, or transfer to my NH900 at whatever quality I choose.

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Please, tell me more. I have yet to find suitable software for my laptop with timer facility. Your help on this matter would be VERY much appreciated. I use an Edirol UA 25 not a sound card. This is USB2 and I record direct to a USB2 Lacie 80GB HDD on an empty partition, I the move it across. Sadly I have no timer facility with this.

I am glad to hear from another Late Junction Listener. You obviously like variety too.

Thanks in advance for any help with the timer software.

[Malcolm Stewart]

Please, tell me more. I have yet to find suitable software for my laptop with timer facility. Your help on this matter would be VERY much appreciated. I use an Edirol UA 25 not a sound card. This is USB2 and I record direct to a USB2 Lacie 80GB HDD on an empty partition, I the move it across. Sadly I have no timer facility with this.

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PolderbitS Recorder can record from a variety of sources - in my case I have simply selected the Windows default, which is my soundcard. I suggest you email Mr Kok at the address below and check whether it will recognise data on your USB as being audio data - obviously in your case you don't want to capture via the Edirol's phono outputs to a sound card! He's answered my few questions very quickly.

"With best regards,

Rudy Kok.

PolderbitS Software customer support.

E-mail address: support@polderbits.com

Internet site: http://www.polderbits.com "

Hope this helps - there is a trial version on their website, but I paid for registration very quickly, so don't know what limitations the un-registered S/W has.