Recording Setup For Motorsports?

[flyingpylon]

This is my first post here, and before I begin I just want to thank all of the knowledgeable people that have replied to other topics. I've been able to learn a great deal already.

I'm very new to live recording. What I'd like to do is carry a small device that allows me to record sounds at auto races and similar events as I walk around and take photographs. Ultimately, what I'm trying to do is give listeners a sense of being there. The style of recordings I'd like to capture are more documentary/ambient in nature than to try to isolate particular sound effects, etc.

After doing some research I'm excited about the Hi-MD format. It seems extremely portable due to it's small size and light weight, the media is inexpensive, sound quality is high, and transfer to PC sounds relatively painless. Initially, I plan to present my recordings as MP3 files on my (still being developed) web site. Though that won't require the ultimate in sound quality, I still want the original recordings to be as good as possible (given my budget) for archive purposes, etc. By comparison, if you know anything about digital cameras, I use a DSLR and shoot in RAW format even though right now I just display resized & compressed jpegs on my web site. Same principle applies.

My budget is roughly $400 or so for all of this. I'm strongly considering the Sony MZ-RH910 since I don't feel like I need the few extra features the MZ-RH10 provides. Now I need to get settled on a pair of small, decent quality microphones.

One thing I'd like to point out is that I want to do much more than record loud cars circling a track, though that will obviously be important. I also spend a good deal of time in pit/garage areas, open grandstands listening to the PA system, many times there can be concerts before or after the on-track activity, etc. In addition, the cars I will record vary greatly in sound volume and pitch. For example, there are karts, midgets, sprints, IndyCars, Formula One cars, stock cars, dragsters, etc. I think the dragsters would have the most low-end content and Formula One cars the most ear-piercing high end.

My requirements for mics are that they need to provide a sense of being there, so I'm pretty sure I'll need omnidirectionals/binaurals. I also need them to be quite small, so that I can clip them to my shirt or whatever, leaving my hands free. They need to be able to deal with very loud sounds at times, and decent windscreens will be important.

From what I've gathered, the Sound Professionals SP-BMC-12 seem pretty good based on the specs. I'm also interested in the Core Sounds low cost binaurals, but I don't see their full specs on the web site. Has anyone else used these?

I'm also wondering whether I will need a battery box/module, and whether I would need any kind of bass roll-off or level control features included. Or would the Radio Shack level control do what I need?

I think that covers it. Sorry for writing a book, but I try to completely describe what I'm trying to do before asking for advice.

So... any advice? Thanks!

[A440]

I haven't used those BMC-12's, but using the basic BMC-2's has given me a lot of faith in SP, and the BMC-12 mics start with much better basic capsules. SP says they'll handle some serious volume levels--110 db without extra power--so they should do your job.

Core Sounds has a very good reputation for quality, too, but they tend to be more expensive overall.

Omnis are also better than cardioids at rejecting wind noise.

I suggest you start with just the RS attenuator and see how it works for you. If it's not good enough--and I think it's very likely that it will be--then you could get a battery box and go through line-in, but that recording will be quieter.

As I've posted before, I'm skeptical about bass roll-off. I would rather have the whole frequency spectrum on the recording (as long as it's not distorting), then do any filtering later rather than eliminate it as it goes in.

Manual, not automatic, volume is going to be essential for you.

But I can virtually guarantee you will be pleased with the quality of MD recording. When you make some of those track recordings, please post some vroom-vroom to the livefrommd mailbox at yahoo.com (password 1minidisc1).

[ozpeter]

MS-based mics are also a good way of capturing a realistic stereo soundstage with good ambient feel. I'm not up with current model numbers but I'm pretty sure that any "proper" Sony stereo mic will use MS (by which I mean anything intended to be held in the hand).

Keep in mind how the listener will perceive the stereo sound field. Possibly stating the obvious, but say you were recording a car zooming past - don't follow the car with the mic, else you won't get the in-on-the-left, out-on-the-right feel. The same applies in more subtle situations - don't move the listener's head around when he/she might not expect it. So if the mics are attached to you, you may have to go a bit strangely rigid at times!

[dex Otaku]

MS-based mics are also a good way of capturing a realistic stereo soundstage with good ambient feel.  I'm not up with current model numbers but I'm pretty sure that any "proper" Sony stereo mic will use MS (by which I mean anything intended to be held in the hand).

M/S stereo is a specific single-point transducing/encoding type. It uses 2 microphone elements [a side-facing figure-of-eight element and a forward-facing cardioid] and matrix circuitry in order to reproduce a stereo field.

Not all microphones are capable of M/S, in other words. Most microphones are not M/S stereo, and in fact, most "single point stereo" mics are not M/S either. Most use coincident patterns of one type or another.

Omnis are also better than cardioids at rejecting wind noise.

You have this backwards, A440. Any directional mic is more likely to reject noise outside its polar pattern, and that includes wind noise. Avoiding wind noise is, I would say, probably one of the main reasons for using cardioid and hypercardioid directional microphones.

By comparison, omnis, being omnidirectional, will pick up wind noise from all directions simultaneously, including buffeting from shock mounts, mic clips, booms, partial obstructions such as walls, or even the person wearing the microphone.

Incidentally, umbrellas, especially huge durable golf umbrellas, make great windshields when recording with omnis.

Flyingpylon: There are whole collections on the net of samples from different microphones, including the ones mentioned in this thread already. Reactive Sounds and Sound Professionals both have archives of sounds recorded with the various microphones they sell, for instance. Searching the web for microphone model numbers will give you a few places to look for short demo recordings.

I'm quite fond of my SP-TFB-2s, myself, though I wish I had a setup that could do on-location dolby stereo matrixing.

[A440]

Regarding cardioids and wind noise, I quote the Sound Professionals FAQ:

"Omni mics also are more forgiving of handling noise and wind noise, so are a good choice if you can't secure your mics firmly or have to record in windy situations and don't want to use large windscreens."

Here's the URL for Sound Pros' omni-vs-cardioid FAQ:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/...ry=binvscardfaq

Wind noise in microphones isn't a separate sound in the 360-degree soundscape that would be rejected by a directional mic. It's the wind affecting the mic element itself. Other places also say that cardioids suffer more from wind noise, like the Microphones section on this page:

http://www.jeffreypfisher.addr.com/field.html

[dex Otaku]

Regarding cardioids and wind noise, I quote the Sound Professionals FAQ:

"Omni mics also are more forgiving of handling noise and wind noise, so are a good choice if you can't secure your mics firmly or have to record in windy situations and don't want to use large windscreens."

Wind noise in microphones isn't a separate sound in the 360-degree soundscape that would be rejected by a directional mic. It's the wind affecting the mic element itself. Other places also say that cardioids suffer more from wind noise.

Interesting [and I grasp the reasons why it should/could be the case] but my experience says exactly the opposite.

Much of the problem comes with case design and how the element is protected, but generally speaking, my experience with mics from Sony, Schoeps, Sennheiser, Shure, AKG, EV, Peavey, Tascam, and about a dozen other companies, including with microphones costing in excess of several thousand dollars each [and not intended for outdoor use, but hey, oops], is that omnis [and figure-of-eights] tend to be more susceptible to wind noise from any angle, though again - this depends on case design as much as it does on pickup pattern.

Elements with closed backs, for instance, I have always found to be worse at handling wind [in the worst cases actually achieving something close to a DC offset because of constant negative pressure on the front of the element].

Pretty much regardless of what mic is used, I have found that certain angles of element-to-airflow are always louder than others, and found omnis to be far less forgiving for any given angle, creating broadband noise [including hypersonics which can severely mess with A/D converters] rather than simple rumble which can usually be filtered out.

Certain cardioids and hypers are worse than others, particularly shotguns which use interference patterns set up by ridges along the mic casing and around the element, as each ridge acts as its own wind baffle.

[ozpeter]

Most microphones are not M/S stereo, and in fact, most "single point stereo" mics are not M/S either. Most use coincident patterns of one type or another.

Yes, but I did specify Sony hand held ones, which as far as I can see are all MS types as denoted by their model numbers. Indeed due to their wide distribution, perhaps most people buying a hand held one-point stereo mic will be buying Sony and therefore an MS type. Agreed, the output is A/B although years back I had a Sony MS999 (?) mic with optional MS output.

As for wind noise, indeed, it's generally held that omnis as a class are most immune. See for instance the Schoeps site where they comment that

" ... the difference in wind noise pickup between pressure transducers and pressure gradient transducers generally (i.e. omnidirectional microphones vs. directional microphones as a class) can be as much as 20 dB. Thus when wind noise is a factor, one should always consider whether an omnidirectional microphone could perhaps be used. Furthermore, it should be considered that a windscreen will affect the low-frequency polar pattern of a directional microphone".

This link contains an explanation and useful advice on minimising wind and handling noise for anyone wishing to go into it in depth.

[dex Otaku]

Thanks, ozpeter.

[LowMD]

Flyingpylon specifically asked about small, hands-free mics and you guys are going on about M/S handhelds and giant golf umbrellas.

He needs something like Dex Otaku's in-ear SP-TFB2's or some little clip-on omnis.

[flyingpylon]

Flyingpylon specifically asked about small, hands-free mics and you guys are going on about M/S handhelds and giant golf umbrellas.

He needs something like Dex Otaku's in-ear SP-TFB2's or some little clip-on omnis.

←

Yeah, the discussion took a little turn there, but I still appreciate everyone's input (no pun intended!).

I've become very interested in the Core Sounds Binaurals (not the low-cost version) because of their included battery module and their ability to handle very loud volume levels. They would require me to stretch my budget a little, but what else is new? However, I've also read some stories about Core Sounds' claims being pure hype, etc. (are they the Bose of microphone manufacturers?).

Honestly, in the end I'm not sure I will know the difference given that I'm just starting out with live recording. But I'd like to be able to buy some reasonably-priced stuff that will allow me to learn and that I can grow into a little before I want something that's higher quality and much more expensive. My primary expensive addicition is digital photography, and live recording will just have to be secondary to that.

At any rate, it's imperative that the microphones be small, "wearable", and allow my hands to be free most of the time to carry camera equipment and shoot photos.

[Tourist]

Maybe the Core Sounds are worth the $230--I haven't been lucky enough to try them-- but if I were you I'd start with something less pricey.

You're not recording in a hushed auditorium, but in a noisy, dusty place, so you'd be fine starting with either basic binaurals or in-ear binaurals or, if you want to start one step up, those Audio Technica binaurals from Sound Pros (or their equivalents elsewhere). Your recordings will be extremely realistic with any of those.

Where you're standing, how the mics are attached to you and whether you're rustling your photo gear are all likely to be more important factors in what you get out of your recordings than the nth degree of audiophile perfection in the mics.

On a loud recording, the mic preamp will likely overload before your mics do, and an attenuator would take care of that. If the mics themselves do overload, you could add a Juice Box from Reactive or a battery module from Sound Pros/Microphone Madness later, or a preamp/battery box combo.

Edited April 11, 2005 by Tourist