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Hi-md, Recording Live From Pa

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GeoW

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A friend has a Sony NH 900 she got for direct live recording from the

line out of a PA. It works fine with a mic but going direct provides a

signal that's too low with the line input and too hot with the mic.

ALC hasn't really helped. You just can't get the input level high or

low enough. With my old Sharp SR-60 I have no problem using the mic

input from the PA direct (the line input is too low, which I still

don't understand) and getting a good clean signal.

Now I know with ALC off the recording levels will vary with the PA

output setting but it should be easier to get an optimum level in the

Sony Hi-Md. Any suggestions? I could add a preamp to the line-in but that's

just silly. There must be a way to do this...

Thanks.

G.

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Suggestion? No offense, but the obvious ones are -

* get the PA equipment fixed, or, if appropriate

* learn to use it properly, or

* use better equipment [even if it seems silly]

You could try using the line in and manual levels, turning up the levels until the line-out from the amp's signal shows on the meters. It might be noisy.

If you're using something like a Peavey integrated mixer/preamp, don't expect any better quality than this.

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  dex Otaku said:
Suggestion?  No offense, but the obvious ones are -

* get the PA equipment fixed, or, if appropriate

* learn to use it properly, or

* use better equipment [even if it seems silly]

You could try using the line in and manual levels, turning up the levels until the line-out from  the amp's signal shows on the meters.  It might be noisy. 

If you're using something like a Peavey integrated mixer/preamp, don't expect any better quality than this.

Excuse me, and with all due respect, but this is just wrong. This isn't about the PA quality but being unable to get the Sony to respond properly with the signal. This PA is a SoundTech S60, probably the cheapest and most poorly designed PA available. Sells for $375 WITH 2X12 speaker cabs. Doesn't even have a line-out or phone jack. I had to patch a Y cable into the effect send/return jacks to get an output to the recorder. Nor will it work with a Fender Passport or on the direct out of an Ultrasound acoustic amp. ALL worked perfectly fine into the mic input of my 5 year old Sharp.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept that I'M at fault by missing a simple setting on the NH900...in fact I assume I am...but to blame the PA or suggest the need for buying another component to make the NH900 work is hardly a reasonable solution given the fact that the Sharp works fine.

Thanks for the reply, though....

G.

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I have suggestions, even if they're stabs in the dark:

  Quote
I had to patch a Y cable into the effect send/return jacks to get an output to the recorder. Nor will it work with a Fender Passport or on the direct out of an Ultrasound acoustic amp. ALL worked perfectly fine into the mic input of my 5 year old Sharp.

Was the mic input of your sharp "smart" and able to detect mono/balanced plugs as opposed to stereo plugs? [i have seen equipment that does this.]

Not to assume you don't know this, but - an effects insert [loop] is mono, with a send on one wire, return on another, and a shared ground.

1 - It's possible that your Y adapter has the ground hanging because the return is likely not plugged into anything [the ground needs to be, well, grounded to something, hopefully something inside the chain that isn't going to raise or lower what ground is for everything]

2 - it's possible that said insert does not operate at full line level, given the amp's character [and hey, I use cheap equipment too - yay Peavey]

3 - it's possible that your Y-adapter, if it is going out in "stereo" to your recorder, has its lines arranged incorrectly causing phase cancellation or partial grounding of the signal [i've been through this hell doing the same thing with inserts and bad y-cables, btw]

4 - it's possible that the insert you're using is "post fader", meaning the amp's input's gain control as well as the main volume affect the signal going to it [even if there is a separate "effects send" level for it]; if this is the case you'll have to crank the amp in order to get the output level up. You could possibly use the recorder as the "insert" device, with the amp sending to it, and the headphone out returning back to the amp, so the recorder's volume control still lets you control its volume. But then, it would be pretty goofy to design an amp that way.

5 - Depending on how the insert is wired, it may be possible to use an instrument cable that is plugged in part-way to the insert, and an adapter to jack into the recorder in mono [or dual mono]; some but not all equipment with inserts support "non-interrupting sends", meaning you can plug a 1/4" cable in part-way, mak contact with the send and ground on a TS [mono] cable, and it also doesn't mute the amp - if this is the case, it's likely the easiest way out

  Quote
Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept that I'M at fault by missing a simple setting on the NH900...in fact I assume I am...but to blame the PA or suggest the need for buying another component to make the NH900 work is hardly a reasonable solution given the fact that the Sharp works fine.

Well, manual levels might help correct it, but if the amp is simply putting out too low a signal or the y-adapter is disfunctional [compared to Sony's standards at least] in some way, it might not.

Good luck and have fun,

D.

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  dex Otaku said:
I have suggestions, even if they're stabs in the dark:

Was the mic input of your sharp "smart" and able to detect mono/balanced plugs as opposed to stereo plugs?  [i have seen equipment that does this.]

Not to assume you don't know this, but - an effects insert [loop] is mono, with a send on one wire, return on another, and a shared ground.

1 - It's possible that your Y adapter has the ground hanging because the return is likely not plugged into anything [the ground needs to be, well, grounded to something, hopefully something inside the chain that isn't going to raise or lower what ground is for everything]

2 - it's possible that said insert does not operate at full line level, given the amp's character [and hey, I use cheap equipment too - yay Peavey]

3 - it's possible that your Y-adapter, if it is going out in "stereo" to your recorder, has its lines arranged incorrectly causing phase cancellation or partial grounding of the signal [i've been through this hell doing the same thing with inserts and bad y-cables, btw]

4 - it's possible that the insert you're using is "post fader", meaning the amp's input's gain control as well as the main volume affect the signal going to it [even if there is a separate "effects send" level for it]; if this is the case you'll have to crank the amp in order to get the output level up.  You could possibly use the recorder as the "insert" device, with the amp sending to it, and the headphone out returning back to the amp, so the recorder's volume control still lets you control its volume.  But then, it would be pretty goofy to design an amp that way.

5 - Depending on how the insert is wired, it may be possible to use an instrument cable that is plugged in part-way to the insert, and an adapter to jack into the recorder in mono [or dual mono]; some but not all equipment with inserts support "non-interrupting sends", meaning you can plug a 1/4" cable in part-way, mak contact with the send and ground on a TS [mono] cable, and it also doesn't mute the amp - if this is the case, it's likely the easiest way out

Well, manual levels might help correct it, but if the amp is simply putting out too low a signal or the y-adapter is disfunctional [compared to Sony's standards at least] in some way, it might not.

Good luck and have fun,D.

No, the Sharp can't detect a difference, and the PA IS mono. I just run from the effect loop, mono-to-stereo adapter to MD and have the MD record in mono. I was actually pretty amazed at the quality of recording I was able to get.

1. Y arrangement works fine.

2. I don't think the send is line level, which is why I use the mic input. This is way too hot with the Sony but I think I may be overlooking a setting.

3. Not a problem in this case.

4. The insert IS post fader. I'm aware of that take it into account. No ALC on the Sharp so if someone fools with the PA I make the compensaton on-the-fly.

5. Yeah, the halfway trick was my first thought but won't work in on this PA. In fact, Plugging into the send kills kills the main outs to speakers. This is why I use the Y...to send one leg to the MD and the other back into the PA return. Kind of a pain, but it works.

I'll take your advice and see if I can dig into the menu for any settings that might affect the levels. I don't have the Sony in front of me but I seem to recall someting that allows you to set mic/line inputs within a range of high or low.

Thanks for the suggestions.

G.

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Mic-In lets you switch between Hi and Low Sensitivity (under Rec Set). If it's still too hot at Low then use my ever-popular attenuator, the Radio Shack headphone volume control as pictured, or if you're in England, Maplin VC-1 Headphone Volume Control.

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