VERY IMPORTANT, HOW TO MAINTAIN LONG TERM MUSIC?

[Guest Anonymous]

THis is going to be a fairly long post so i keep it ASAP.

Basically I have 150MDS worth of live recorded audio. My furture recordings in HIMD and old ones I WANT TO MAINTAIN FOR REST OF MY LIFE AND FUTURE GENERATIONS.

Basically IM ASUMING:

@ The atrac format currently can only be played with sony software and looking 30yrs down the line it wont be around therefore any existing atrac recordings will need to be upgraded. this is similar to converting my mp3s into mp4s

@ During the conversion process i have just said, IM ASSUMING something will be lost i.e. quality so if i go from mp3>mp4>future formats. as i encode my music to keep it up to date it will loose something. IS THIS RIGHT?

PREMISE....

THe way i see my audio being maintained in quality for long term is to record in HIMD IN PCM, and keep those in some lossless format and store those origionals in some sort of long term storage. And keep a second copy in mp3/4 or wotever for normal music listening and portability. so when mp5 or whatever will be the new portable standard comes out, i convert my origional lossless format into mp5 or whatever.

WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? is this a long term solution to keeping my music quality. OR if i keep my atrac files and when the new atracs come out over the years, when i convert my files will they maintain quality(ASSUMING IM USING SAME/HIGHER BITRATES)

[JohnnyLocust]

Any time you convert one lossy compression to another there is usually a good deal of damage done to the quality.

Go to the forums at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/ Just about any question you have about sound quality and transcoding can be found there. (even ATRAC )

[Christopher]

You could use Hi-MD as a long term storage device, granted you took extremely good care of the devices you are employing. Also, since lifespan concerning optical media is weary, I would suggest transferring data between discs every 5-10 years.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks so ur saying im right about i.e mp3>mp4>future formats will kill my recordings over time, but what do you think about my approach to solving this problem? i.e keep master wav copy or lossless format, and portable copy in mp4 or something.

Any time you convert one lossy compression to another there is usually a good deal of damage done to the quality. 

Go to the forums at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/  Just about any question you have about sound quality and transcoding can be found there. (even ATRAC    )

[Guest Anonymous]

I dont think u understood anything i said, lookin in the future 50yrs from now MD will not be around and its also likely support for such a medium will not exist. what ur suggesting is every time the New MD comes out i re transfer all my recordings into the latest atrac, but didnt i say every time u encode ie. from atrac 3, to atrac3 plus to future atracs, i slowly mess up my old recordings through the encoding.

can u read my post again and give ur advice to a long term solution to preserving audio and quality? what do u think of my approach i suggested?

You could use Hi-MD as a long term storage device, granted you took extremely good care of the devices you are employing. Also, since lifespan concerning optical media is weary, I would suggest transferring data between discs every 5-10 years.

[KJ_Palmer]

I don't think kurisu mistunderstood you. If you initially transfer your MD recordings digitally to lossless PCM you won't be losing anything (in theory). This could be any suitable format such as HiMD (PCM) or just good old CD/Wav.

You don't need to use ATRAC at all, thus bypassing compression.

You can then transfer your intact recordings to any future format OR make a HiMD backup. The point is that though minidisc media is relatively stable, it will detoriate after time, so if your recordings are so valuable to future generations you should arrange to have them backed up (losslessly) once in a while. And if you look after your HiMD equipment you should be able to play them back for decades to come.

[Guest Anonymous]

So your saying i keep my master wavs on MD as data?

I don't think kurisu mistunderstood you. If you initially transfer your MD recordings digitally to lossless PCM you won't be losing anything (in theory).  This could be any suitable format such as HiMD (PCM) or just good old CD/Wav. 

You don't need to use ATRAC at all, thus bypassing compression.

You can then transfer your intact recordings to any future format OR make a HiMD backup. The point is that though minidisc media is relatively stable, it will detoriate after time, so if your recordings are so valuable to future generations you should arrange to have them backed up (losslessly) once in a while.  And if you look after your HiMD equipment you should be able to play them back for decades to come.

[Christopher]

So your saying i keep my master wavs on MD as data?

KJ_Palmer is 100% correct in his interpretation of my inital statement. Nonetheless, if you do keep anything on your discs, be sure that you swap the data between the archive disk and a fresh one every 5-10 years to keep the data from facing loss.

p.s. Welcome to the forums, please register?

[jadeclaw]

Well Mandeep, you are hitting a sore point here...

But that's not MD's or Hi-MD's fault, this problem plagues everything stored in digital format.

To come back to your first posting:

First, all forms of transcoding from and to lossy codecs (ATRAC, AAC, MP3/4 et al) degrade the quality on each generation. And it doesn't matter which one, if it's a lossy one, you'll keep losing quality.

Second, optical media degrades over time and no one knows how long a MD holds out as the oldest one produced is just 12 years old, and we're talking in human generations here

And don't think, that CD-R is more reliable, multiple failed on me already, Audio as well as Data...

Ok, so my idea would be:

Keep your original recordings uncompressed on good quality media and make a compressed copy on cheaper media for everyday listening.

the real problem is the availability of playback equipment, so choosing a medium for long term storage that has a big installed userbase is recommended here. and seeing the amount of cd-players sold, it might be a good idea to copy your stuff onto audio-cd as well. It's uncompressed and ubiquitous... so the possibility to get a player in thirty years from now is quite high.

One questions keeps bugging me: How long will Sony support MD / Hi-MD in the future?

[Guest Anonymous]

So basically I was correct in my initial assessment, since im never going to listen to the long term lossless recordings it does not matter if i keep them on a cdr, dvd or hdd, thats not even worth discussing as i can copy the data to the latest medium whever it emerges as its only copying data.

and that i should record on md in PCM and then keep 1 copy in lossless format and a second in mp*/atrac for normal listening.

Since the latest news is that i cannot even upload my wav recordings, would u suggest record them like we do now i.e. via optical out. OR should i just use atrac3 plus 256 for recording and convert that into wav, as i would prob not notice the difference (that first time) dont you think?

Well Mandeep, you are hitting a sore point here...

But that's not MD's or Hi-MD's fault, this problem plagues everything stored in digital format.

To come back to your first posting:

First, all forms of transcoding from and to lossy codecs (ATRAC, AAC, MP3/4 et al) degrade the quality on each generation. And it doesn't matter which one, if it's a lossy one, you'll keep losing quality.

Second, optical media degrades over time and no one knows how long a MD holds out as the oldest one produced is just 12 years old, and we're talking in human generations here

And don't think, that CD-R is more reliable, multiple failed on me already, Audio as well as Data...

Ok, so my idea would be:

Keep your original recordings uncompressed on good quality media and make a compressed copy on cheaper media for everyday listening.

the real problem is the availability of playback equipment, so choosing a medium for long term storage that has a big installed userbase is recommended here. and seeing the amount of cd-players sold, it might be a good idea to copy your stuff onto audio-cd as well. It's uncompressed and ubiquitous... so the possibility to get a player in thirty years from now is quite high.

One questions keeps bugging me: How long will Sony support MD / Hi-MD in the future?

[jadeclaw]

So basically I was correct in my initial assessment, since im never going to listen to the long term lossless recordings it does not matter if i keep them on a cdr, dvd or hdd, thats not even worth discussing as i can copy the data to the latest medium whever it emerges as its only copying data.

As long as it is a reliable medium.

and that i should record on md in PCM and then keep 1 copy in lossless format and a second in mp*/atrac for normal listening.

Right, to prevent the original recording from loss or damage.

Since the latest news is that i cannot even upload my wav recordings, would u suggest record them like we do now i.e. via optical out. OR should i just use atrac3 plus 256 for recording and convert that into wav, as i would prob not notice the difference (that first time) dont you think?

You can upload anything recorded via analog input onto your PC. Including Linear PCM. Old recordings made with currend equipment cannot be uploaded, that must go the old route - via optical in...

And speaking of sound quality, I say 98 % will not hear any difference between Linear-PCM and current SP.

And I guess that Hi-SP will be equal in quality.

Maybe even better... But for that to find out, we have to wait for the actual recorders to appear.

Concluding, I say, since we have enough experience with MD in terms of medium term storage, you don't have to panic now and think thoroughly about the best long term strategy.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for all your help. i have already bought a 15gb ipod for the portable listening you see thats why im a bit panicing lol

I had the same though that the origional atrac files sound just as good as the wav or cd, if not better! so do you supose i just keep the atrac3+256 files on hdd or whatever medium i decide. rather than manually convert the linear pcm files to wav via optical out from a HImd deck (when they come out) and i say manually because we cannot upload the wav files :S

My only reservation of keeping the origional recordings in atrac3+256 rather than wav is the total lack of support for the format i.e. no direct show support, and i couldnt even convert it to mp4 for my normal listening purposes could i?

Also regarding the file support, could i literally drag and drop my uploaded recordings across different pcs or do i have to go through all that database and copy management crap?

And I guess that Hi-SP will be equal in quality.

Maybe even better... But for that to find out, we have to wait for the actual recorders to appear. 

Concluding, I say, since we have enough experience with MD in terms of medium term storage, you don't have to panic now and think thoroughly about the best long term strategy.

[jadeclaw]

Thanks for all your help. i have already bought a 15gb ipod for the portable listening you see thats why im a bit panicing lol

Yeah, I call that panicking... :wink:

I had the same though that the origional atrac files sound just as good as the wav or cd, if not better!

Definitely not better that CD(Linear PCM) as that is uncompressed.

so do you supose i just keep the atrac3+256 files on hdd or whatever medium i decide. rather than manually convert the linear pcm files to wav via optical out from a HImd deck (when they come out) and i say manually because we cannot upload the wav files :S

Ok, to give you a guideline, this will be my archival strategy: Non-important things, or where the quality is already reduced, like radio-recordings, will be recorded in Hi-SP(256K) and ends up on normal MDs. If the content is important to keep, it will be uploaded to the pc, converted into an open format (e.g. OGG-Vorbis at a high data rate) and dumped onto an DVD-R as archive. Important live recordings and Vinyl copies are done in Linear-PCM and uploaded to the pc as well, converted into wav and dumped off to DVD-R as well. Good quality DVD-Rs should survive 30+ years (FujiFilm claims 100+ years) and DVD-drives are now so widespread, there should be one available then. And if I see them becoming scarce, it is still enough time to copy to a new disc-format, Blue-Ray or AOD or whatever is the standard by then.

My only reservation of keeping the origional recordings in atrac3+256 rather than wav is the total lack of support for the format i.e. no direct show support, and i couldnt even convert it to mp4 for my normal listening purposes could i? 

Also regarding the file support, could i literally drag and drop my uploaded recordings across different pcs or do i have to go through all that database and copy management crap?

Well, that depends on the Export function of the Sonic Stage software and what that allows. And how that turns out we will see when the first forum-members got their Hi-MD units up and running, so we have to wait until then. Atleast one more month...