lyndon1904

I decided to burn the midnight oil and test the 20m 26s file tonight. There was what sounded like a click at 17m 50s - but I think it's probably a member of the audience fidgeting! I hardly dare say you have cracked it - but it certainly looks like it ... :grin:

Well, I've just tried out the new version on a file recorded today - 9m 11s long. I have to confess that, try as I might, I can't hear a single click :grin: :grin: - so I think you may have cracked it. I'll test it out again tomorrow on that long file I was using yesterday - but it's all beginning to look decidedly promising!

I just downloaded v.0.07 but it won't start - a message pops up saying that libguide40.dll is missing and that reinstalling the program might help - it doesn't I've been having a clearout and am wondering if I've accidentally deleted it (libguide40.dll). If I have, where can I download it again and where should I put it? I've done a Google search, and whilst there are lots of *references* to the file, I can't find a download site.

I hope you don't regard mine, with all my carping about clicks etc., as negative - I greatly admire all you have done so far, and most particularly the speed with which you post new versions. Version 0.06 was a huge improvement on 0.05, and so tantalisingly nearly there. I'm just about to download version 0.07. Keep up the good work. :smile:

As Himdrenderer is still under development, I've bought Total Recorder to use in the meantime. Now, I realise that sound files are either digital or analogue, but are files recorded with Total Recorder via SonicStage *as* digital - i.e., as 'pure' - as files rendered using Himdrenderer? MarC's program creates (I assume) an exact copy of the original .oma file in .wav format. Does TR do this, or is the file subjected to further processing (thus becoming a little further removed from the original sound)? I have listened to both types (Himdrenderer and TR) of recordings on my hi-fi and must say I can't really tell the difference., but I'd still like to know. (In TR I have recording source set to 'software', and recording level set to '100% of original', so the sound card is bypassed TR's own driver is used.)

'Smooth over block borders' has definitely improved the click problem, although it hasn't eradicated it altogether. I did some more 'road testing' this morning. The best result I obtained (on a file 20m 26s long) was with a block size of 45 seconds. There were clicks at 13.11 (none at all before that, curiously) 13.55, 15.23, 16.51, 17.35, 18.19 and 19.47. A block size of 30 seconds gave the following result - some clicks have been eradicated, as can be seen: 0.28, 1.55, 2.25, 2.53, 3.22, 4.20, 5.18, 6.16, 6.45, 7.43, 9.10, 10.37, 12.04, 12.33, 13.31, 15.27, 16.54, 17.23, 17.52, 18.21, 18.50, 19.19 and 20.17. A block size of 50 seconds resulted in a click approximately every 49 seconds on a three-minute section of the same file when I played it back. I also tested another file (5m 3s) using a block size of 30 secs. In this case, clicks were heard as follows: 1.55 (click-free until then), 2.25, 3.22 and 4.49 - but again, not on every block as was the case yesterday. I also tried a block size of 40 seconds (on the same file) but I only listened to enough to confirm that there were some clicks (at 16.14 and 17.32 on the selection I heard). So, 45-seconds seems to be the optimum figure at the moment, but I've not tried finer tweaking (e.g. 46 or 44s). Looks as though Marc's on the right track, though. :smile:

I had actually split the hour-long recording into tracks on the recorder before uploading it - each track was about 5 minutes long. I think that there are, actually, a few clicks here and there, but since the concert was in a large church with the mic placed about 50 feet from the singer, the average recording level is quite low, although very clear: as previously mentioned by someone else (dex Otaku?) they tend to be less obvious when the amplitude is lower.

I’ve spent a couple of hours experimenting with Himdrenderer in an attempt to eliminate the ‘clicks’ issue. It appears to me that changing the overlap size makes no difference to the clicks: the default setting of 1000 milliseconds seems to be the ideal one in terms of avoiding skips (overlap size too low, and occurred when I set it at only 100 milliseconds) or repeated chords (overlap size too high, and occurred when I set it at 2500 milliseconds). The only way to reduce the number of clicks is to increase the block size to the maximum, and they then occur once ever 50 seconds. What follows is pure hypothesis – I can only guess at how Himdrenderer (Hmdr) works. Am I correct in saying that Hmdr takes each block (of whatever the length set) from the .oma file, ‘processes’ it into .wav form, stores it in a temporary file, deals with the next block in the same way until it reaches the end, at which point all the blocks are, effectively, crossfaded together to the extent specified by the amount of overlap set, and the final .wav file is then created? If so, the problem would be eliminated at a stroke if it were possible to set the block size to the entire length of the track concerned. Is that possible? The problem appears to me to be that there is a ‘visible seam’ (well, an audible one!) between the blocks, despite the overlap. I can recreate exactly the same ‘click’ in Cool Edit. If I am editing a concert file and want to take out the audience coughs and splutters between pieces, I select the part of the file concerned, go to Edit, Zero Crossings and ‘Adjust Selection Outwards’. The selection expands to the next point on either side of it where the waveform on both channels crosses the centre ‘zero’ line. The result is an absolutely seamless edit. If I don’t do this and simply select and delete the coughs, I get a click exactly the same as the one I’m getting with Hmdr at the point at which the edit was made. Is there any possibility (please bear in mind that I have no idea at all of the programming complexity this may or may not involve) that Hmdr could be altered to begin each new block at the point closest to the block size selected where there is a zero crossing?

Please excuse the third post in a row from the same person, but I just wanted to add, especially after my constant carping about 'clicks'... Last Friday I accompanied a former singing pupil in a lunchtime concert (Vaughan Williams 'Songs of Travel' and 'Let us Garlands Bring' by Gerald Finzi). This was the first time I'd used the MZ-NH1 to record a concert. Before I'd heard of Himdrenderer, I uploaded the concert in the normal way, via analogue cable to Cool Edit - and was rather disappointed with the result (still the same rather '2-D' sound, despite having recorded in PCM). I then joined this forum, discovered Himdrenderer and did the whole thing again (via the woeful SonicStage) and used Mark's program to the .oma files to .wavs. There is no comparison between my original effort and the real 'presence' of the unspoilt digital recording (I think there's just one 'click' in the whole hour). If it wasn't for Mark's efforts, I'd feel I'd completely wasted nearly £300 on the MZ-NH1.

it occurs to me that the 'click' I (and others) have reported corresponds exactly to the kind of sound experienced in Cool Edit if you perform an edit, such as a cut or a deletion, without first selecting 'zero crossings' and expanding or contracting the selection to be deleted or cut so that the ends are at points (please excuse non-technical language) where both the left and right channel wave patterns together bisect the 'neutral' line in the middle. I don't understand how 'block sizes' work, but I wonder if there's any way to stop the next 'pass' from occuring (or 'block' from starting) until a zero-crossing point is reached. This may, of course, be a complete load of rubbish...

Not at all - it was most informative. This evening I carried out the following test on a file of 1 minute 17 secs duration - the same 'piano' file on which I'd noticed the clicks. I used the latest version of Himdrenderer with the Windows GUI and played the files back in Windows Media Player. Block Size=5 - clicks and repeats every 5 seconds Block Size=10 - clicks and repeats every 10 seconds Block Size=20 - clicks only (i.e. no repeats) at 38 and 58 seconds Block Size=30 - clicks only at 28 and 58 seconds Block Size=40 - clicks only at 38 seconds Block Size=45 - NO CLICKS OR REPEATS ANYWHERE Block Size=48 - click at 47 seconds Block Size=49 - click at 48 seconds Block Size=50 - click at 49 seconds Block Size=45 (second test) NO CLICKS OR REPEATS ANYWHERE Haven't yet tried 45-second block size on a longer file.

What is strange (to my limited knowledge) is that it doesn't seem to happen every time: I had it happen twice in a one-minute track and not at all in the twenty-minute test I did last night. However, the short track was of me playing the piano and the long one was of nothing in particular - just background sounds around the house. This may be a stupid question, but does the intensity/density of the recorded sound make any difference to the incidence of a 'one-sample error'?

Strange... when I posted earlier I was a bit disappointed with those 'clicks'. However, I have been clearing a lot of my old minidiscs dating back to 2001 (I have hundreds of them) and the disc I was using was, I think, an old one. Just ran another test using a brand new Sony MD recording just background sound for about 20 mins - not a click anywhere. So, maybe I just used a duff disc, although it sounded ok in SonicStage. Anyway, if Marc wasn't on the case with his new program I'd be tearing my hair out, having paid nearly £300 for my MZ-NH1 *assuming* that I'd be able to create CDs of unbelieveable clarity using Sony's own software... Next thing you know, they'll bring out their best-ever video camera: broadcast quality - you'll be able to watch it on your computer or save it to VHS tape - but not to DVD.

I always record in PCM

Sorry to follow up my own post, but forgot to mention that the 'click' occurred with the latest version (004) and didn't seem to happen with v.003. Am I correct in assuming that since the sound file is being treated simply as data by himdrenderer that interference from devices attached to the computer shouldn't be the cause?