Alternatives to Hi-MD for recording

[SeineSeeker]

I guess this has been asked, but I can't find a succinct answer.

What alternatives to Hi-MD are there for mic recording and line-in, including upload? Do any of Sony's solidstate players offer this? What other truly portable devices do this?

[me]

Is a Creative Nomad Jukebox 3 too big?

[A440]

Succinctly:

http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?p=27695#27695

[SeineSeeker]

Succinctly:

http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?p=27695#27695

Thanks! I had a look at that thread, so the answer is no, despite its limitation Hi-MD is the best recorder/uploader.

[kubladrum]

I'm also debating going the harddisk route versus buying a HI-MD unit. I don't need super hi-fidelity. Just enough for reference recordings on gig.

The new Archos gmini 400 looks like it overcomes many of the previous drawbacks of a hd recorder ... i.e. adjustable record levels, recording in WAV format, drag-and-drop file upload/download, recording editability. You can also store 20gig, any file format. And no proprietary software.

Still no dry batteries which is a drag or mic input, but can't I get around that with a powered mic into the line-in? Has anyone else seen these? Can anyone convince me why HI-MD is still the better alternative?

Please help! Thanks!

[Classicalgas]

Why is Hi-MD better?

Well, firstly, let's define better. "Better" is the solution that meets most of your needs. "Best" would be a solution that meets all your needs.

To make a definitive evalution, first it is necessary to define what your needs are. I bet your needs are similar, yet still different to mine. My focus is recording the music I make.

I love the portability, the low noise floor, the ability to transcode back to any format (thanks Marc!) from any source. I love my MZ-NH1's optical in option. ATRAC+ sounds great to me, despite the carping on this forum. Also, an iPOD or any HD recorder has a capacity limit - an MD has limitless capacity through removable media.

There is no one "best" for everyone. There is only what is right for you. Hi-MD is right for me. Make your own choice, but make sure you know what it is you want first. Most people who are dissatisfied with the format seem to have not understood its limitations eg., SS, proprietary compression, etc. Those who can live with these restrictions are very happy indeed.

[kubladrum]

Thanks for the insightful response Classicalgas!

I owned an MD previously until it gave out on me. I was very pleased with the excellent quality recordings. But in deciding whether to replace it or not, it seems that the performance gap with the HD recorders is quickly closing. As I said, I don't need super high quality recording capability -- I never really even pushed my MD to the limits of this -- just want to playback rehearsals and gigs to for my own review and critique. Can I get a decent, listenable recording from an HD recorder like an Archos?

Regarding storage, I basically have unlimited capacity either way by uploading files to my computer. But I like the idea that I could carry around the bulk of my CD collection on an HD recorder when I travel. No discs to keep track of -- I still have a shoebox full of those little things that I need to label and upload to my PC. Being able to drag-and-drop from the HD is pretty cool, rather than going through file conversions or uploading to my PC in real time.

I know what I want to be able to do, it's a matter of whether an HD recorder will do it. From what I can tell, the good HD's like the Archos seem to be able to do just about everything I ever wanted from my MD. Really, I think the recording quality is the only thing that would keep me from switching formats at this point.

Does anyone have experience with live recording to one of these portable HD players?

[rirsa]

Edirol R-1

http://www.edirol.com/products/info/r1.html

Marantz PMD-670

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=1582

Marantz PMD-671

http://www.d-mpro.eu.com/users/folder.asp?...18&SubCatID=169

Marantz PMD-660

www.niehoff.nl/marantz/pmd660.pdf

The 670 is the only one available at the moment but the other three will be available in the next few months. Prices start at around $430.

These are all made by pro audio companies and are designed with recording as their primary function. Aside from the sound quality, the reliability and design is (in the case of 670) or should be much better than anything you find in a cheap consumer HD-based recorder.

[kubladrum]

Thanks a lot rirsa -- I'll check these out.

[722Forever]

classicalgas -

I totally agree. You have to find what's right for you. I'd been planning literally for months before I decided to get my NH900 last week. I'm mostly interested in being able to record uncompressed PCM and upload digitally to PC.

A lot of friends have been asking 'why didn't you get an iPod or and mp3 player??!' They, of course, don't understand what my needs are regarding portable audio technology...

When I'm walking through a noisy forest or standing by a river, and iPod isn't going to be much help if I want to record the environment...

[A440]

The apparent drawback to the Edirol, mentioned elsewhere on these boards, is that it doesn't have a lot of editing capabilities, like track mark placement. You'd have to upload and edit on the computer, or I guess you could stop and start it for each track.

It looks like the Marantz does have a track-mark equivalent, EDL. Too bad it's not smaller. Also, the cost of those compact flash cards is going to mount up. But I'd sure love to have one to play with.

[rirsa]

With the CF card recorders you definitely have to offload. That's either a plus or a minus depending on how you work. With MD you can use the original as your archive copy. On the other hand offloading is a lot easier, faster and more reliable with any of the Marantz recorders or the Edirol. Let's face it, you have to be on a very tight budget or masochistic to put up with Sony's Wav Converter, Sonicstage contortions.

CF Card prices are also dropping fast. 1GB is around $75 at the moment and in another year maybe it will be $30. Given that serious recorders supporting CF Cards are also appearing at more reasonable prices you have to think that Sony is about to lose a nice sized slice of the recording market just like they lost a nice slice of the player market to Apple. I wouldn't buy their stock.

[SeineSeeker]

Nice to know there are people out there who like to just record stuff! Like forests, cities or whatever.

[Christopher]

I would also check out the discussion we had a little while ago here: http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=6862

[safish]

Marantz PMD-660

www.niehoff.nl/marantz/pmd660.pdf

The 670 is the only one available at the moment but the other three will be available in the next  few months. Prices start at around $430.

These are all made by pro audio companies and are designed with recording as their primary function. Aside from the sound quality, the reliability and design is (in the case of 670) or should be much better than anything you find in a cheap consumer HD-based recorder.

←

I just spoke with a Marantz rep in Germany. They will be releasing the PMD-660 in April at the Music Messe in Frankfurt.

It will be about half the price of the 670 (which is still >1000 EUR). Still much more than a MD player, but there are tons of advantages: no moving parts, direct to mp3 or wav recording, easy to find media (compactflash), larger media (2 GB, 4GB), XLR mic jack, etc.

All I can say is... finally!

[rirsa]

It will be about half the price of the 670 (which is still >1000 EUR).

←

The price is a lot cheaper in the US. The PMD670 normally sells for around $700 but can be found as low as $589 (450 Eur). The PMD is being listed for $499 (385 EUR) at the moment but my guess is that we'll see it cheaper. Not sure what the availability is in the US at the moment.

[rirsa]

PMD660 is now widely available. There's a review written by a PRI producer/engineer here:

http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_int...503.pmd660.html

[Michael1980]

Hey, I keep hearing a lot about NJB3 and the above professional recorders:

What are their main advantages over HiMD?

Thanks

[rirsa]

For the PMD660 the ones that come to mind are:

*Fast upload via USB direct from machine to either MAC or PC. CF card appears as external drive so just drag and drop. The cards is removeable so you can also use any type of reader or adapter for CF cards. (No SonicStage / DRM nonesense).

*XLR inputs

*Large, easy to use controls and good design so recording is fast and reliable.

* Solid state so highly insenitive so vibration and bumps.

* Automatically saves recording and shutdowns before batteries run out.

There are a few more features on the PMD670/671 (digital in, limiter, etc) but larger size and additional cost.

There are trade-offs with everything so whether these are an advantage over MD depends on the user and application. For professional interview recording I think the PMD660 has a lot of advantages over MD.

[dex Otaku]

I think the most important thing to note is that the Marantz units [all of them] are designed specifically for professional broadcast use. Their size, design, functionality, durability, &c. all reflect this.

They would not be suited for many of the things that MD / Hi-MD users look to do [i.e. stealth recording, location recording using a single AA battery] as they are intended for a different purpose in the end.

That said, using the equipment that best suits your purposes is always a good idea, as long as you can afford it. Keep in mind that professional units will allow uploading in the clear [a definite plus] but also won't directly support the use of the smaller stealth mics that so many of us use without adapters and possibly even external preamps [as the mics we use usually require 'plug-in power' which is not the same as 48V phantom on XLR jacks], bringing the end price up even further.

[rirsa]

I think Marantz has a much broader market in mind than professional broadcast. That is certainly one of their markets but if you look at the case studies and application markets they list you'll see they are targeting a fairly diverse group of users. They list business, education (e.g. linguists, qualitative researchers, etc.), nature recording, government, musician/oerformance, and others. I'd add in legal recording...The PMD660/670 are primarily (but not limited to) anyone who records interviews/meetings/conferences/lectures -- a huge and diverse user base, many of whom will probably like this machine a lot because of the fast upload, easy of use, and greater reliability.

MD, as you point out, has a significant advantage for stealth recording. There might be other situations where MD has an adavantage as well. If you are in a remote location and have to do a lot of recording before you have an opportunity to offload from the CF card to computer then the cost of the media and the lower AA battery requirements might give MD a significant edge. But these are specialized and limited markets. Marantz sold truck loads of the PMD670 and I bet they sell even more PMD660s. Bottom line is that Sony's losing market on two fronts--player (iPod etc) and recorder. They messed up.

MD is also cheaper although for the type of professional users listed above I think the difference of several hundred dollars is insignificant. In the overall scheme of other costs several hundred dollars is trival and is eaily made up for in improved reliability, fast upload, etc. In the long run MD is actually more expensive for most of these users.

Mics. For a lot of people the internal mics on the Marantz will work fine (e.g. recording for transcription etc.) I agree that anyone buying one of these units and who needs higher quality will probably want to use a professional mic or mics with XLR connectors. That said, other mics will work with adapters. The small binaural stealth mics made by Sound Pros and others will work. You'll need a battery box with mini input on one side and XLR outputs on the other (make sure phantom power on the recorder is turned off).

[Michael1980]

I don't know. I mean it doesn't really offer any major advantages IMO (for non-professionals).

CF and big buttons, are nice, but it is not something major.

DRM is not a problem since all recordings are converted to Wav's anyway.

MD also saves recordings and shuts down, at least my older MDLP do this.

MD's offer digital-in on all models, which is nice.

Plus, the editing functions on the MD units are nice. Add/delete track marks (on the non-portables you can move by frames, fade-in and fade-out).

How about NJB3, what are it's advantages over HiMD?

Edited March 21, 2005 by Michael1980

[rirsa]

I don't know. I mean it doesn't really offer any major advantages IMO (for non-professionals).

I was mostly talking about people who have to record interviews, meetings etc. as part of their work. That's a pretty substantial market and Sony used to have a large chuck of that market.

CF and big buttons, are nice, but it is not something major.

When I was using MD on a regular basis I also thought this. But it is actually a big issue for a lot of people. It makes the recorder much easier to use. It's not just the larger buttons; it's the whole design. No annoying menus (preferred settings are set up and saved in advance). Turn the power on and push the large record button and you're going. Solid red light so you know you are recording and not in pause etc. Easy and reliable.

DRM is not a problem since all recordings are converted to Wav's anyway.

But you have to go through SonicStage and a conversion process. Compared with the process involved with one of the Marantz units, it is complicated, slow, and unreliable. I haven't heard anyone say they like SonicStage. Also only works on PCs.

MD also saves recordings and shuts down, at least my older MDLP do this.

I don't think I ever tried letting the batteries run out while recording on my MD units. Guess one might be okay but not something I think I'd want to try. You've got to use one of the Marantz recorders to appreciate the lack of worry about Toc write failures etc.

MD's offer digital-in on all models, which is nice.

The PMD670 comes with digital in. It's nice but the only advantage of digital in is that you can hook it up to a better preamp which obviates MD's size and cost advantages.

Plus, the editing functions on the MD units are nice. Add/delete track marks (on the non-portables you can move by frames, fade-in and fade-out).

The Marantz recorders come with extensive editing and marking features.

How about NJB3, what are it's advantages over HiMD?

I thought Creative stopped making the NJB3. I guess long record time and rapid upload but meters, ergonomics, menus etc are all awful. I guess it has its uses but I'd stick with MD for recording over the NJB3 or similar units from iRiver etc. Various users and reviewers I've read have noted that the iRiver hd units drop samples...Ugh!

[ozpeter]

I've seen comment that the Marantz mic inputs are rather noisy. That on the NH900 seems remarkably good to me. I've started using it professionally for backup instead of DAT (main recording being to CDR) where the dire ergonomics don't really matter, but that and the mills-of-god transfer speed (compared to CDR anyway) is the real problem with serious use. If HHB brought out a pro Hi-MD version it might be interesting.

[rirsa]

I've seen comment that the Marantz mic inputs are rather noisy. 

←

The reviewer on Transom who works as a producer/engineer for Public Radio says this:

"Marantz is frequently criticized for the noisiness of their mic preamps, but the 660's are fairly clean when used with condenser mics, which the manual recommends, saying that dynamic mics will work, but are not ideal. The unit will provide phantom power for condenser mics. With fairly loud condenser mics there's still a very low hiss, but it's so low it's unlikely to cause much of a problem for most users....The mic pre amps are decent quality when used with condenser mics"

Any recorder under $500 is a compromise. Marantz are trying to meet the needs of as wide a range of people who need a quality portable recorder with professional features for under $500. It's not perfect but the bottom line here is that the noise is "unlikely to cause much of a problem for most users." The reviewer doesn't compare the preamp noise with an MD recorder but he's written extensively on consumer MD recorders and so I think his silence on this issue means that the difference wasn't a significant factor in his evaluation. There are probably other factors that are more significant in determining what compromise works or doesn't work for a particular user.

If money wasn't an issue we'd all be using a Sound Devices 722 with some mics to match but it would be overkill for most of us. And there would still be compromises. I hear more expensive units like the HHB pro minidisc recorder and the Sound devices have pretty bad battery life. Such is life.

Edited March 22, 2005 by rirsa

[dex Otaku]

I think Marantz has a much broader market in mind than professional broadcast.

Indeed, actually, it would have made more sense for me to say that Marantz's units are intended more for professional use, which encompasses the range that you mentioned [which I agree with].