What Am I Doing Wrong?

[Soapm]

I have a NH900. I am making some test recordings as I prepare to record our church service tomorrow. I left the AGC in auto (cause it goes back to auto anyway and I won't want to have to keep fiddling with it during service and I don't think the batteries will last two or three hours keeping it in pause), MIC sensitivity to low and my recordings are noisy. I have tried it in both PCM and HI-SP mode and they are basically the same, noisy. You don't really notice it until I normalize them in Sony Sound Forge 7 but you can hear a hiss before the audio starts. Sounds like a cassette or vinyl record. I can use a plugin to remove it but this is why I changed from tape.

Any idea what I am doing wrong? If I'm going to have to process the files to remove noise etc... I could have just stuck with the tapes.

[classicalnut]

What kind of microphone are you running into this machine. The mike can make a difference. Some mikes have more self noise than others. Please give us more info and then maybe we can help. Peace

[Soapm]

What kind of microphone are you running into this machine.  The mike can make a difference.  Some mikes have more self noise than others.  Please give us more info and then maybe we can help.  Peace

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Maybe that's my problem. Here is the MIC. I initially thought the recorder would come with a MIC and when I found out it didn't, the wife took away my budget. This was the most I could afford. Turns out the company is in Israel and it took 3 weeks for the mic to arrive.

Any one know of an economical mic that will give me faily good recordings? Im not looking for studio, just something I can burn to a CD and be proud to say I did it with my NH900.

[LowMD]

If you want to try another cheap Ebay mic, I have "Stereo Lapel Microphone for Minidisc" and it works pretty well as long as you don't touch the mic while using it. Here's a typical listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...ssPageName=WDVW

I see there are also some mics claiming to be Sonys on there. I wouldn't trust them myself.

Or get the Sound Professionals BMC-2, which sometimes shows up on Ebay for $25-29, not a noisy mic at all.

Here's a listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...3780422140&rd=1

[Soapm]

I appreciate all your suggestions Capt'n but do you anyone reccomend any that plug directly onto the mini disc?

I ask because, as I explained, I like to record at church. Being a minister also I sit in the pulpit. This also allows me to place my recorder on the preaching podium which makes for great recordings. I'm afraid the mics with wire might make to much of a production out of my recording. You know, draw attention away from where the true focus should be as I try to get it all set just right. With a built in or attached mic, I can slip it into a out of the way spot as he begins speaking and like Ron would say, "set it and forget it". Minimum distraction is my objective.

[hayduke]

for a really cheap second try i'd say head to radio shack and pick up an "extension cord" for the mic, male end into the mic-in on the MD and other end of the cord female for the mic to plug into. seperating the mic from the recorder could make a difference, and this route is inexpensive for sure! ask for a headphone extension cord...

good luck!

[hayduke]

.....b/c having a mic plugged directly into the MD could cause the mic to pic up RF from the MD, just a little seperation can make a big difference.

[Christopher]

There are two nice plug-in mics at Reactive Sounds. The Delta mic, one of their best selling products, is a very good mic for these purposes and I actually employ one myself. It will pick up motor noise just like any other mic of this type, but shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Regardless, have you tweaked with the recording level settings? You cite battery as being an issue, but are you employing a high capacity gumstick? What about the AA add-on pack?

Furthermore, can you upload one of your recordings [use the attachment feature in the forums if need be] so we can hear this noise you speak of?

[Soapm]

Regardless, have you tweaked with the recording level settings? You cite battery as being an issue, but are you employing a high capacity gumstick? What about the AA add-on pack?

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Nope, I use AGC because I don't want to cause a distraction fiddling with manual setting everytime (after each choir song etc...). I also am trying to keep it small and inconspicuous as possible so no battery pack either. I also wanted something that concealed nicely in my suit coat pocket (no bulges etc...)

Furthermore, can you upload one of your recordings [use the attachment feature in the forums if need be] so we can hear this noise you speak of?

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Sure. Excuse my singing because you have to turn it up to hear the noise.

I'm starting to think I screwed myself going this mini disc route. I should have went with my first thought and got a digital voice recorder like this one.

Edited February 6, 2005 by Soapm

[Soapm]

I think what I need to make this work is a wireless mic. I could the put the mic on the podium and keep the recorder by me or even in my pocket.

[Christopher]

That's a good idea, look into shure wireless mics for this purpose. I have one for my bass guitar and it has incredible range and fidelity.

After listening to your recording, the only thing I really hear consistantly is noises from the motor/pickup on the Hi-MD unit. Everything else sounds very clear. You need a mic that can distance itself somewhat from the recorder.

Nice singing, btw.

[A440]

A wireless mic is really overkill for this--then you will be dealing with a battery pack, a receiver for the MD, etc., not to mention the possibility of static via the wireless transmission.

All you need to do is separate the mic from the recorder with a cord to get rid of that motor vibration--even with a short cord to the mic you have. Clip it to your lapel or place it on the podium (someplace where nothing will rub it) and put the MD in your pocket, hit the record button long before you start (you can put a track mark in later), put it on HOLD and you should be good to go. If you're worried about battery power, get a higher-maH gumstick, or clip on the AA pack. One, and certainly both, will get you through hours of recording.

If AGC works for you--and it probably will if there's no deep bass involved--use it.

But don't be afraid of manual levels. You can set them as people are getting into their seats and then forget them, too--PAUSE doesn't seem to take much battery power. I record whole concerts using the Radio Shack headphone volume control/attenuator (turned all the way up), High Sens, Manual 10/30 and do no fiddling at all during the show. Sometimes it takes a little amplifying afterward, but there's ample headroom.

And by the way, that voice recorder? I don't see any specs for it, and if its built-in mic and/or recorder are geared for just the narrow range of voice, you wouldn't be thrilled with what it sounded like on music. Despite the uploading hassles, you're far better off with MD and good mic-ing, which will give you hi-fi.

[Soapm]

Nice singing, btw.

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I would have sounded better but I couldn't find my other shoes...

Thanks for all the help and advice. I just listened to todays service and overall I think I'm on to something here. You guys did me right! You can't hear the motor noise at all during music etc..., it was easy to use and the sound is not too bad. However, I know I have some tweaking to do.

I plan to get a short cord from radio crap sometime this week but there were a couple of other things that perplex me. Please listen to this sample.

To set the seen, my Pastor is leading this song. He is walking around with his mic in front of the pulpit maybe 5' from recorder. Our PA sounds fairly loud in the sanctuary and I have no trouble hearing him. The recorder is setting on the podium with the mic facing opposite his direction which is toward the choir. The drummer is probably 20' and to the right side of the pulpit. This is the same side of the podium where the recorder is sitting, except, again, the mic is not facing the drummer either.

As you can hear, the cymbals are dominating the recording and the sound tends to go up and down a bit. Also, periodically there is a tick or static sound where the machine is doing something. It did this all through the recording. Hope that isn't when it is writing to disc.

The dominating cymbals, you think that is mic, its reletive position or what?

The up and down sound, you think that is the AGC or what could be doing that?

Any ideas for the tick sound? I did notice it seems to be in sync with the volume going down. I wonder if that is the AGC also?

Again guys, thanks for all the help.

Edited February 6, 2005 by Soapm

[Soapm]

I think some of what I was hearing was the speakers on my puter. I burned the songs to disc and played them on the way to work and this sounds fantastic. Still a little too much drums but I'm thinking if I begin sitting on the opposite side of the pulpit may fix that.

will somebody please give it a listen and let me know any suggestions to improve the quality?

[dex Otaku]

Your link to download the WAV file doesn't work.

The pumping and wheezing is definitely caused by the AGC. The purpose of AGC is to alter the recording levels dynamically to prevent the recorded signal from being distorted; if the dynamic range of what you're recording is very high [and especially if it's lowest levels are also very high] you will be driving the AGC into action constantly, which produces the volume pumping. Trying the "loud music" setting might improve this.

The ticking is possibly either the mic overloading, or the mic preamp overloading - more likely the preamp. As I haven't heard it, this is only a guess.

Again, I'm making a guess here, but it's likely that the noise in your recording is caused by something in the room where the recording is being made. It's possible that something in there is making the noise without your realising it - our brains tend to filter these things out. Ventilation systems, PA amps/speakers, steam heat systems, air conditioning, &c. are all likely culprits. There's also the possibility that something in the church is putting out fairly high-intensity ultrasonics; ultrasonics get recorded as lower harmonics by MD recorders, as they have no hard filtration on the input to their analogue to digital converters.

Chances are, if you were using a voice recorder, you would be having the same problem - but with worse overall quality.

[Christopher]

It works for me, dex. Right click and save as, perchance?

[dex Otaku]

It works for me, dex. Right click and save as, perchance?

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I get "The page you are attempting to find could not be located. You may have typed it incorrectly or it may have been moved or deleted. Click here to go back, use our search or you might find what you are looking for in one of our channels." on an MCI error page.

If I try to right-click and save as [in Opera, Firefox, and IE] it tries to save an html page.

[A440]

Just listened to Sample.wav and Dex is (as usual) correct: that's definitely AGC trying to cope with volume changes. (Dex: right-click on Sample, then "Save Link As... in Firefox).

Since you're recording a full gospel band, with drums, let me strongly suggest the Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control/Attenuator: it works. My settings (with the NHF 800) are High Sensitivity, Manual Volume 10/30, with the mic plugged into the Headphone Volume Control and the volume knob on the HVControl turned all the way up. That gives enough headroom for the music, though you may have to amplify any orating later.

Your mic sounds a little tinny, by the way. If you can, you should get either a full-range (20-20,000 Hz) one point stereo mic like the Delta or those Sound Pro binaurals. Church Audio also sells an inexpensive binaural pair (on Ebay) based on the same capsules as Sound Pros but with a slightly larger housing; if you're handy you could build a little stand for them, or just clip the cords to your lapels with the tips of the mics in the air.

And yes, get away from the cymbals if you can, because no mic can clean up the mix. Sound on stage (or pulpit) is probably always unbalanced--do you have a friend who could sit in a good-sounding spot in the audience and make the recording there?

If you're stuck with those cymbals, maybe SoundForge has a high-frequency (or Low Pass) filter.

[Soapm]

Thanks for all the advice guys...

Your link to download the WAV file doesn't work.

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Is there some way I can get you the file Dex? I would sure love having your input.

Trying the "loud music" setting might improve this.

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I was going to try the loud music setting but page 36 of the manual says, "if an unexpectedly loud sound is input when mic agc is set to loud music, the recorded volume thereafter may drop very low". That sounds like I could end up with a recording that is initially high in volume then drops low and not recover. Any idea if I am correct?

The ticking is possibly either the mic overloading, or the mic preamp overloading - more likely the preamp.

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Makes since... If that so then the manual volume adjustment should fix it, right?

My settings (with the NHF 800) are High Sensitivity, Manual Volume 10/30, <snip> though you may have to amplify any orating later.

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What does 10/30 mean? Even if the preaching was a little low, shouldn't it come out ok once it's normalized?

or just clip the cords to your lapels with the tips of the mics in the air.

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I tend to sing filler along with the choir. I tried to join but they moved rehersal to a night I can't make. If you heard my singing you wouldn't suggest having the mic anywhere near me. as my pastor would put it, "he's loud, I can say that for him".

If you're stuck with those cymbals, maybe SoundForge has a high-frequency (or Low Pass) filter.

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Might give that a try, I was also thinking some kind of equalizer would be nice to run the file through prior to burning. The problem is, the speakers on my puter are not great and if I equalize to those the outcome will have no hope...

[Christopher]

You can use the attachment feature in replies to attach the *.wav.

[A440]

Point by point:

"Loud Music" is a setting for AGC. It doesn't affect manual volume. And since AGC is fluctuating audibly then it's better to bypass it.

As Dex has discovered, manual volume, unfortunately, comes into the path AFTER the preamp, so loud music will overload the preamp even at lower volumes. That's why I use the Radio Shack attenuator.

To set Manual Volume, you need to have a disc in the recorder and REC/Pause set (you can push the Rec/Track button and the Pause button simultaneously and you'll see the display blinking 0:00.) Go through the Menu to REC SET and then under the REC SET menu to Record Volume and change it from Automatic to Manual. When you click Manual you'll see 13/30--lower it (by pushing the (>) pointing stick to the left) to 10/30. Un-Pause to start the recording.

Yes, it's a pain. And yes, it's worth it.

Normalizing will bring the preacher back up, yes.

So you're leaving the recorder somewhere with the mics plugged in? If you get a binaural pair, just tape the cords together then and set them at a little distance from the MD (to lose the motor noise), or build something to hold them.

Look at your effects in SoundForge (or download Audacity) and see if you can filter out some of the highs or if there's some kind of software equalizer. See if you can get a good pair of headphones to equalize to, since most computer speakers are pretty low-fi.

[Soapm]

Attached...

[dex Otaku]

..and Dex is (as usual) correct..

I, uh. Yeah. Um.

This is among the strangest places I have ever invested a lot of time in. Maybe I should go hang out at hydrogenaudio for a while so I can bashed down to dust by the real pros. [No actual offense meant to HA users.. honest humour]

Really, though. People should stop calling me a guru or whatever. I'm just some guy.

Incidentally...

"Loud Music" is a setting for AGC. It doesn't affect manual volume. And since AGC is fluctuating audibly then it's better to bypass it.

Aye, but - loud music doubtless has a longer sustain time, meaning that there should actually be -fewer- fluctuations in volume.

[Christopher]

Attached...

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Not seeing it..

[Soapm]

Not seeing it..

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I didn't see it either but i figured i just didn't know where to look for it. Can someone else try to attach it?

[LowMD]

sample attached, I hope

Edit:

Kurisu--tried to attach it but there's nothing here.

Edited February 10, 2005 by LowMD

[Soapm]

Yesterday was my second Sunday recording, I toiled all night with the final descisions on settings. I went with low sensitivity and 15/30 as a medium. I just knew all was going to be great this time. No waving AGC, no overdriven preamp etc... I guess with all my testing and changing of settings I forgot one important detail, I got home and only had about 15 minutes of the service.

You got it, I didn't charge the batteries. The 15 minutes wsere great but our pastor was asside himself and preached an extra good message. People were coming up asking me for copies and of course i said, sure!

Live and learn...

[dex Otaku]

Forgetfulness is the mother of, uh, self-reminders.