Is It Possible To Recover Lost Audio On HiMD?

[dex Otaku]

This is longish, but please do read if you're about to ask how to recover your lost audio on a Hi-MD formatted disc. For those of you who feel no need to try and understand the problem, or at least, a theory about it, the salient points are in bold, so you can just scroll down.

A little history here..

With MD, the table of contents [TOC] is always placed in a predictable spot, set aside as part of the actual disc structure. [see http://www.minidisc.org/ieee_paper.html]

Cloning the TOC of one MD to another is a relatively simple matter since it always behaves the same way, with the data in the same place.

The rest of this is theory, so please don't take it as gospel. I am at least as if not more likely to be proven wrong on this as right. For all I know, I might be completely talking out my arse on this - but then, I might not be, too.

Hi-MD uses something similar to a virtual filesystem for its audio functions. You have a FAT32 partition [the same as Windows98 and newer use], and on that partition you have files representing the audio data, DRM info, track tags, and so forth.

Possibility #1: While there might be fixed-location headers for these files on Hi-MD-formatted discs, -if- the length of those files is not fixed, it would be impossible for their full locations to be fixed - otherwise it would difficult in the extreme to account for variable file sizes [such as a half-full vs. full disc with audio alone] and still have USB storage work correctly.

This would make it next to impossible to clone a Hi-MD TOC, since parts of its information would move around the disc, be different sizes, &c.

Possibility #2: This is more likely to be the actual case - that the TOC, DRM info, tags &c. are stuck in fixed-length files that are always placed at the beginning or end of the disc. This might seem to make things easier, but there's a serious caveat to this. Keep reading.

So again: TOC cloning on MD works because the system is always laid out the same. It's predictable, so it's impossible for the TOC to overwrite audio data on the disc.

Assuming possibility #1...

If you could take the TOC from one disc and clone it to another, what's to say you're not going to overwrite audio? Or computer data? And what happens to the track tags, DRM info, &c.? These all have to match up for the audio portion to work correctly - Hi-MD relies on hardware encryption as part of its DRM, for one thing.

In this case, writing another TOC to a Hi-MD disc would be more likely to corrupt it further than to recover any data. Further, if the TOC were successfully written without damaging any other data, the DRM info for the tracks listed in that TOC would be invalid, as would [most likely] the encryption keys; the tracks would not work.

Assuming possibility #2...

In this case, the mismatched DRM info alone from overwriting one TOC with another would prevent anything on the disc from being usable.

Either way - you can't clone Hi-MD TOCs, at least.. not with the tools we have now.

Okay - so where are the tools for recovering audio data on Hi-MD? Why can't I use scandisk?

To my knowledge, there are no such freely available tools at this point in time.

Scandisk cannot work for these purposes, because even if you correct the types of problems that can exist in a FAT32 filesystem, the audio, DRM, or tag data on the disc will still be corrupt [or at least, inconsistent]. Audio data will not match DRM info will not match track info, so nothing will budge. Or, in the case of partially-corrupted tracks, nothing is likely to change.

Fine. So why can't some linux hacker make the recovery tools?

Well - technically, some linux hacker could make the tools. All they'd have to do is crack Sony's DRM system, their encryption, and the proprietary methods and protocols they use to talk with Hi-MD hardware over USB. It's called reverse-engineering, and yes, it's illegal, even if people do do it all the time.

The legal way for someone outside of Sony to make these tools would involve licensing the technology from Sony - and paying for it, of course. Probably paying a great deal for it, in fact. This is not to mention the technology non-disclosure agreements they'd likely have to sign as well.

If you happen to be a philanthropist hacker [in the traditional sense] with lots of money, this works out fine. Until someone like that pops up though - I'm not holding my breath. [Though I'm not even holding my breath on the linux guys, actually.]

Sony themselves are likely to have these tools kicking around already, of course. You don't develop a full hardware medium without making the tools to go with it.

Which means:

If you really need to recover your data, for the time being the only likely way to do this is to contact Sony and ask if they will do so for you. Otherwise - sorry, but you're out of luck.

Or at least - you're out of luck until someone proves me wrong, which in all honesty I'd rather be much sooner than later.

[toolow66]

re: retrieving/recovering accidentally erased Hi-MD files

>> Either way - you can't clone Hi-MD TOCs, at least.. not with the tools we have now. To my knowledge, there are no such freely available tools at this point in time. ... If you really need to recover your data, for the time being the only likely way to do this is to contact Sony and ask if they will do so for you. ...

It does look bleak. Perhaps we can coax someone like the makers of RestoreMyFiles - which claims the ability to recover a long list of media file types (but not .oma/.omg or Sonic Stage's HMA files<whatever those are) - from removable media.

I've just sent an email to Sony seeing what they might suggest. I'll let everyone know if I have any luck with file recovery info.

[Recordgrooves]

I've just sent an email to Sony seeing what they might suggest. I'll let everyone know if I have any luck with file recovery info.

←

Me Too!

I have done this bout a month ago!

[mercury_in_flames]

Anyone got a response?

[terrytree]

EASEUS DataRecoveryWizard is a complete range of data recovery software

for all Windows operating system platforms and supports various file

systems including FAT, FAT16, VFAT, FAT32, NTFS, NTFS5 on

various storage media. EASEUS DataRecoveryWizard ensures safe and precise

file recovery against numerous threats like accidental file deletion and

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[MDfreak]

EASEUS DataRecoveryWizard is a complete range of data recovery software

for all Windows operating system platforms and supports various file

systems including FAT, FAT16, VFAT, FAT32, NTFS, NTFS5 on

various storage media. EASEUS DataRecoveryWizard ensures safe and precise

file recovery against numerous threats like accidental file deletion and

disk formatting and so on.

Data-recovery-tools are nice but they cannot see the "hidden" keys Sony uses for it's DRM. So recovering data and copying back to the disc will still probably result in non-readable music (especially if you have to format the disc before it can be used again).

How those hidden keys get on the disc outside the FAT formatted area? That is why you always have to format the discs with SonicStage. This creates besides the FAT formatted area the keys for the DRM.

[Mattias]

Hello!

I recently got a MZ-RH10 and have made some successfully live recordings with it and also converting them to wave files using SS.

However, when I was going to upload one of my latest concert recordings, SS threw an error message after it had completed the first of 10 tracks. Now the message "Cannot read or record disc" comes upp in the mz-rh10´s display.

I can still get the .HMA files from the disc using Explorer so the disc is not erased.

I have read a couple of threads of people having the same problem.

What can you do to get the encrypted data on the disc?

I have tried using HiMDRenderer and HiMDExtract and managed to get the tracks as .omg files but I can´t read them because of the encryption.

I have read in some threads that you could you use WinHex (or some other program) to manually paste the atrac-data to a fake omg file. Does somebody know anything about this?

There must be a way to recover the data, even if I have to send the disc to Sony. They should have a tool for decrypting this.

Please answer if you now how to do with this. The recording is a concert made by a band I´m playing with and the the other band members are going to be really angry if I´m not solving this

Thanks!

/Mattias

[MDfreak]

Hello!

I recently got a MZ-RH10 and have made some successfully live recordings with it and also converting them to wave files using SS.

However, when I was going to upload one of my latest concert recordings, SS threw an error message after it had completed the first of 10 tracks. Now the message "Cannot read or record disc" comes upp in the mz-rh10´s display.

I can still get the .HMA files from the disc using Explorer so the disc is not erased.

I have read a couple of threads of people having the same problem.

What can you do to get the encrypted data on the disc?

I have tried using HiMDRenderer and HiMDExtract and managed to get the tracks as .omg files but I can´t read them because of the encryption.

I have read in some threads that you could you use WinHex (or some other program) to manually paste the atrac-data to a fake omg file. Does somebody know anything about this?

There must be a way to recover the data, even if I have to send the disc to Sony. They should have a tool for decrypting this.

Please answer if you now how to do with this. The recording is a concert made by a band I´m playing with and the the other band members are going to be really angry if I´m not solving this

Thanks!

/Mattias

"Cannot read or record disc" Sometimes I get that message too. I resolve it by reinserting the MD in the recorder so that it re-reads the disc. If the first attempt does not work... try again! I always managed to get the RH10 to read the disc again correctly.

[riley]

Sorry, I posted this by accident!

Edited January 23, 2006 by riley

[Recoveryman]

I'm offering regular Md recovery for anyone interested. You can contact me at rddion@prodigy.net

Thanks

Rick

Edited May 4, 2006 by Minidiskrecovery

[sebastianbf]

Anyone is gonna try and send a disc to minidiskrecovery?

[bafao24]

! long track was deleted today when i was trying to transfer to my library. I am using SonicStage 3.4.01 on winxp professional. It's the 1st time it happens, yesterday i was able to transfer without any problems. Now the files are not even on the disc itself.

Does anyone know how to recover or can offer a service to recover the file? Disc hasn't been formated.

Cheers

[gastoune]

Same problems as matthias : I have a trashed MD with MZ-RH10 unit for no particular reason.

Windows Explorer can browse top folder but not inside the HMDHIFI folder.

I'm trying to clone the TOC (I recorded another full Hi-MD with silence)

Only thing is 'how to enter the TEST MODE?' (as various procedure for TOC cloning needs it)

Various pages describes how to. but eiter it does not work, either it is not appropriate for this unit (RH10), either it is too mystic for me...

Anyone can help ?

THanks in advance

(BTW my recordings have no DRM , does it help ?)

[chadj]

There has to be something that can be done. Something went wrong with my Hi-MD disk. I was just trying to get the info off of my disk and on to my computer now I get a "Cannot play or Record" The data is on the disk and it is just interviews. Thats all. I need my interviews back. The company that sent me paid lots of money to send me to Asia and now a huge chuck of data is missing becuase I can't access these disks. What do I do? There has to be something. I will pay anyone a good amount to help me fix my problem. Please, can anyone help.

[chadj]

After talking to every data recovery place in the world, drive savers gave me the number of a Sony Plant/customer support/warranty center. A woman there said that she is pushing to get equipment in order to recover data from the disks. So Hi-MD recovery is possible. If you have bad disks you might try and call the same number in order that they know how many are out there. If anything they will realize the problem and hurry to build equipment in order to fix the disks. The woman I talked to said to try back in a few weeks and get an update if anything has happened. So this is being talked about but everyone should call to tell Sony how many people really have this problem. The number that was given to me was

334-793-7655

best of luck to all

[salsasydney]

Hi all:

I've just been through the horrible experience of losing irreplaceable recorded interview files on my Hi-MD recorder, and the nearly as horrible experience of 1 1/2 hours on the phone with unhelpful Sony support staff.

My MD still contains the data I recorded, as the hma file is 980,000 kb in size. But I can't access it because of the stupid, useless Sony software. And the Sony people say they have no way of recovering the files - which seems fishy to me, when they came up with the damn encryption to begin with. Needless to say, this makes me extremely angry. These interviews were part of my dissertation research in the Dominican Republic and I will never be able to duplicate this research.

I told Sony I'd be willing to take them to court over this. Their product is not as advertised and it does not perform the functions that it's meant to perform. It is putting me through enormous and unnecessary trauma while I'm already in the stressful stage of dissertation writing. I'm hoping that (a) I can scare them into doing something about my files, and ( that I can help to change their stupid policies in the future.

Is there anyone else out there that would like to join me? The more the merrier! Class action!!

Sydney

[MC Rock]

Hi all:

I've just been through the horrible experience of losing irreplaceable recorded interview files on my Hi-MD recorder, and the nearly as horrible experience of 1 1/2 hours on the phone with unhelpful Sony support staff.

My MD still contains the data I recorded, as the hma file is 980,000 kb in size. But I can't access it because of the stupid, useless Sony software. And the Sony people say they have no way of recovering the files - which seems fishy to me, when they came up with the damn encryption to begin with. Needless to say, this makes me extremely angry. These interviews were part of my dissertation research in the Dominican Republic and I will never be able to duplicate this research.

I told Sony I'd be willing to take them to court over this. Their product is not as advertised and it does not perform the functions that it's meant to perform. It is putting me through enormous and unnecessary trauma while I'm already in the stressful stage of dissertation writing. I'm hoping that (a) I can scare them into doing something about my files, and ( that I can help to change their stupid policies in the future.

Is there anyone else out there that would like to join me? The more the merrier! Class action!!

Sydney

Hi all:

I've just been through the horrible experience of losing irreplaceable recorded interview files on my Hi-MD recorder, and the nearly as horrible experience of 1 1/2 hours on the phone with unhelpful Sony support staff.

My MD still contains the data I recorded, as the hma file is 980,000 kb in size. But I can't access it because of the stupid, useless Sony software. And the Sony people say they have no way of recovering the files - which seems fishy to me, when they came up with the damn encryption to begin with. Needless to say, this makes me extremely angry. These interviews were part of my dissertation research in the Dominican Republic and I will never be able to duplicate this research.

I told Sony I'd be willing to take them to court over this. Their product is not as advertised and it does not perform the functions that it's meant to perform. It is putting me through enormous and unnecessary trauma while I'm already in the stressful stage of dissertation writing. I'm hoping that (a) I can scare them into doing something about my files, and ( that I can help to change their stupid policies in the future.

Is there anyone else out there that would like to join me? The more the merrier! Class action!!

Sydney

Hello Sydney,

and:

Hi partner !

I had the same bad experience with this machine in HiMD Modus - and I lost 3 HiMD´s full of 20 hours each with this MZ RH 10.

I am a professional musician and I was reording every irreplaceable concert and rehearsal with it(cause it´s small and fits in every bag).

Also in between I used it to record my ideas and sounds - cause I can´t record on studio equipment all the time.

The mistake happens when you press "record and play" in a certain timing and all of a sudden you see, there is no time line shown in the

display like it´s normally there - then the machine stops recording after some seconds - but it´s already too late. You´re told - "Cannot read or play disc". I guess the index then is miswritten and you have no access to your previous recordings after that.

And the delivered Sonic State (that even doesn´t work with apple, thank you guys !! ) is a programme that is even worse than a average filthy low fat hamburger........

I´ve had the same "driving me mad and angry experience" with these "McDonalds"alike Sony support staff, who are not able to give you any positive help ! ( Good technical support is definetly not what you get with Sony !! )

A lot of people working there are not even able to follow you when you report your problem with it-

I keep away from this company for a next machine. They´re only interested in selling their products - HEY PEOPLE of SONY ! -

just take a careful look at what companies like Hammond (producing Hammond organs etc.) in the 40th - 70ies did, with

selling but also maintainance the things in every country - and the tech´s out there knew and still know what to do !!

A good customer support is what they all have to learn again!!! Instead of this they´re building machines that last for approx.

3 years and then - Please: Would you buy the next one....? NO !!!!

But I will try to get contact to the inventors of this machine and also of this "untrustable hma stuff"- staff.

The telephone number info below from member chadj is from Alabama and I just talked to Ed there (866-347-7669) - he said,

that they charge 45Dollars and send the disc to Japan - and for that one time, he said, the customer had success with the recovering.

So, I hope that is right - and will try this over here (I´m living in Germany) from a number he gave me based in France (they do the same thing - sending it over to Japan).

German Sony related companies couldn´t manage this problem at all - and I called up so many of them....... !!!

Ok, so - that is it from my suffering and a lot of anger with this problem since one year with this damned machine.

I really wish I´d recorded all my music on tape..........but - you´re trying to flow with equipment of modern times.

If that is modern times - then we better stop and think about the past .

Well, I hope you had success with recovering your interview - I can imagine too good how you must have felt ! - please let me know, what you could solve yet.(maybe you were that one customer with success?)

And if there is really no solution at SONY, I join you on taking the things to court, too ! ! !

Cause they just lie to you and not keeping

the promises they write - in my profession I couldn´t work and survive with a attitude like that.

Stupid policies of brands like Sony and and and ..... is also what makes the whole planet go down -

we just have to be clever and brave not to support them - and that´s not easy in this " Manipulierte Welt " !

Ok, till the next mail and pardon me `bout my bad english.

Keep on fighting !

MC Rock , 10.November 2007

p.s- hope there is one freak out there , who is able to recover this talked about hma data easily - but unfortunately we´re

always sourrounded more and more by these Idiots out there who fill you fill you up with their stupid spams and viruses.

Use your knowledge for something GOOD !!!!

[Camptruz]

Hello Fellows,

I live in Brazil, I bought the sony Hi-MD Walkman mz-nh600D a year and half ago when a traveled to USA to my daugther birthday. It look like a good product.

Guess what ? Last week she got the same problem, I tried everything but I could

not solve the problem.

I will try to talk with Sony people in Brazil but look like I will have the same frustation that you got.

I keep you informed.

Joao

[Tony_Zamacona]

Hi everybody,

I had a trouble while I transfer my concert recording to my PC, I had an error message and my SS was close.

Then I tried to start once again but this message appeared "Format Disc Error" on my RH910 HI MD, I tried to fix it with several ways but I had no luck.

I copied the HMA archives into my PC but I wanna know what can I do to finally transfer it to wav format, my HI MD was formated, but my HMA archives are safe on my PC

Any help I'm gonna thank you so much my friends

Cheers from Mexico City

Tony

vagabond_heart_mex@yahoo.com.mx

[A440]

Your HMA archives may be useless on the PC. HMA files are encrypted, and there was hidden information on the minidisc itself to help decrypt the .hma files.

You should contact http://www.sonymediaservices.com/ and see if they can help you--it may cost $45 or more per disc, and they may not be able to help you at all (though they won't charge you if they can't help you).

Other people with .hma files stuck on the disc should also contact Sony Media Services. They did manage to fix one disc for me.