Line-in V. Mic-in Recording

[javertim]

The past few events I have recorded have had extreme dynamics. I'm talking about loud music that equals that of a rock concert, coupled with dialogue that is on the "soft" side. Therefore, they have been quite difficult recordings to make. Well, not difficult to make, really, but difficult to master in the final stage. Now, I'll be making many more of these types of recordings in the future, and I was wondering if anyone could offer input as to what set-up would be best for me.

So far, I've gotten my best results using my Sharp DR77, either my standard SoundPro or Core-Sound binaurals, my SoundPro battery module with bass-roll off, and feeding this into the *line-in* on my recorder. I've set the manual level (never use the automatic gain) at 28-30, depending on my proximity to the sound source. I've come out with some really clear, wonderfully distortion-free recordings -- the best I've ever made. However, for my purposes, I still find that the dynamics at hand are a problem. Even when mastering in Cool-Edit or Audacity, I find it tedious and difficult to "equalize" the volume so as to boost the quieter stuff and limit the loud.

But, lately, I've been thinking about trying to go back to *mic-in* recording. I was thinking, if I run my mics through the battery module and set the manual recording levels at, say 10-15, I could turn out with a pretty good recording. But if I am able to turn out a distortion-free recording this way, would there be any sound quality change from the line-in? I know that the mic preamp can sometimes add a bit of noise, but I'm still unsure. Some people have told me that mic-in recordings provide better, more ambient sound, others have proclaimed that line-in works best.

Also, if anyone could lend me any suggestions as to my mastering problems, that would be wonderful. Basically, I just want to boost the low-volume sections and limit the loud stuff (as explained above), and I am hoping to accomplish this in a few steps. I have attempted just to "envelope boost" all the low stuff, but this is an extremely tedious process and I know there has to be something simpler out there. Compression provides a weird effect sometimes, but maybe that's the best place to look. Or perhaps I'm not even looking in the right place at all. Help! ;-)

Thank you to those who were willing to read this hideously long post, and extra thanks to those who can offer thier most keen of insight.

:-)

Edited February 22, 2005 by javertim

[mrsoul]

Sounds more like you need an external preamp as opposed to a battery box. I would always try to avoid that mic input cause the preamp adds too much noise for my taste. Check out the Boost Box at Reactive. It will allow you to turn up the juice on those quieter sections and hopefully avoid going too far on the input side.

You interested in selling that battery box?

[classicalnut]

I recently recorded myself playing the organ while accompanying a vocalist. The dynamics were from very soft to extremely loud. I use my Sound Pros through the mic in and was extremely happy with the results. Recorded the program at a 16 setting on my 800 Hi-MD. No added sound at all.

[motown_junky]

This is my dilema exactly, I too have made A line/in batt box recording and was very happy with the clarity/lack of distortion etc. However compared to my only previous attempt at live concert recording though mic in (plug in power only) it does seem to lack something, I would have to say that I prefer the mic in version even though there is clipping & distortion in places (even with manual levels right down) which I think is due to SPL. So would using the battery box with mic in & low sensitivity & manual rec level etc be the answer.

Sorry to reply to your posting with questions rather than answers !!

[javertim]

  Sorry to reply to your posting with questions rather than answers !!

←

No problem at all, man. I'll only learn more -- and I have A LOT to learn. I had always wondered the same thing, really. Because, once, I used a non-powered mic and recorded via mic-in and got a little distortion here and there, and another time I did the same thing but with a battery box and got a lot more distortion. So, I don't think using a battery box will prevent distortion and clipping unless you manipulate the levels. Can anyone tell me if that's the case?

And, just to keep everyone updated, I just got some new MD>PC hardware that records WONDERFULLY, and so I recorded one whole MD into the computer to run some tests. Well, I used Cool Edit (now Adobe Audition) to master the files. What I found out was that if I envelope the applause and screaming at the end of songs down to a comfortably audible level, it drastically reduces the audio's dynamics. And I always reduce screaming anyway. So, after reducing that (and I would definately use the envelope tool rather than just lowering the dB level, as the latter creates a notable "drop" or "seam"), I just normalized the whole file to 100%, and everything was fine. Didn't need to use a compression tool or anything.

:-)

[A440]

That's great info on the mastering. Audacity has Fade In and Fade Out effects that might do something similar.

In my experience with loud music, the preamp for Mic-In overloads before the microphone does. If you're using a battery box for anything but super-quiet sounds, then you should go through Line-In, which doesn't have a preamp to overload but expects a stronger signal than Mic-In. With or without the battery box, loud music is likely to overload Mic-In.

If you are going to use Mic-In, I recommend Low Sensitivity and my little panacea, the $6.59 Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control pictured with my signature, which is technically an attenuator. With its little volume knob turned all the way up, it attenuates (lowers) the signal before it gets to the preamp to overload.

My current loud music setup: SoundPro BMC-2 mics, Radio Shack gizmo, Low Sensitivity, Manual Volume 20/30. If you want, you could probably add the battery box between mics and attenuator. I have had one painfully loud concert recently where the mics overloaded, audible even with the attenuator, but that's rare. Whereas without the attenuator the preamp was overloading every time someone tapped a bass drum.

[Shermy]

Hey Javertim,

I'm curious about the same stuff.

What are the specs on your mics? In particular what is the maximum input sound level (SPL?)? If it's lower than the actual volume of what you are recording, isn't it always going to distort? Or, will reducing the volume control that? (more of a question for my own knowledge)

Also, binaurals, being omni-directional, are going to pick up a lot more audience noise, correct?

With my set-up, (Microphone Madness Deluxe Stereo Cardioids (MM-MCSM-4) and their Battery Box with Bass Roll-off (MM-EBM-1) into my NH900) I've always recorded line in with the manual level set around 24/30 or 25/30 with Bass Roll-off set at no Bass reduction. It usually comes out fairly quiet unless it's an extremely loud concert, but never distorted. The last time I converted a recording of a jazz concert, I used Audacity and amplified the entire track by about 15db, then used the fade-in and out features mentioned above. Sounds awesome. However, unlike many rock concerts, the audience only clapped after solos and at the ends, and I don't think they screamed . I will say that the clapping of the audience members around where the microphones were placed was very loud (louder than the amplified performers) but not to the point of distortion. If the recording has a weakness, it would be the loudness of the applause in the middle of the tracks. I too would like to know how to reduce this without affecting the rest of the recording.

BTW the max input sound level (SPL I think) for my mics is 120db alone and 130db with the bat box.

[javertim]

Let's see ... I've gotten my best line-in results with my Sharp MD-DR77, Core-Sound Low-Cost Binaurals, and Sound Professionals' SPSB-6 battery module. I usually set my manual recording level at 27-30/30, depending on where I'm sitting. I'm generally not a big fan of adjusting levels while I'm recording. Not only is it inconvenient, but it also dispenses of the event's true dynamics. Consequently, I usually do lessen the dynamic range by means of "enveloping" once I have recorded into the computer, but I'd rather have the option to do this rather than the master being permanently fixed in such a way.

I would imagine my mics have an SPL of around 105-115, but I'm not sure. I have used them to record events that are semi-loud and haven't achieved clipping, so I'm leaning more toward 115. I am very impressed with the Core-sound mics, and I especially like the way they are mounted atop the clip. Their way, you clip them on and they point *ahead* rather than up. I would not buy a pair of cardioids that weren't mounted this way, and have always wondered how one would effectively mount a pair of cards that naturally point "up" (care to share, Shermy? :-)).

I've been looking at the MicMadness MM-HLSO-MICRO mics for a while, now. They're somewhat pricey and I would undoubtedly have to sell off some older equipment to purchase them, but they seem to be quite remarkable (at least by the description -- an SPL of 130 *without* a battery module).

About applause in the middle of a song, I would use the "envelope tool" (time to play "guess which effects tool is Tim's favorite" ;-)). It may be a pain, but all you have to do is minutely select only the clap peaks and envelope them down to a suitable level. Try this once and make sure that the drop in dB level isn't too noticeable. If you just do one individual clap at a time, you really shouldn't have any problems whatsoever. Like I said before, it's much better to use the envelope tool to decrease these areas than simply cutting the sound down by a certain dB level, as the former is a continuous change (such as a fade in or fade out), whereas the latter will present you with a noticeable, abrubt drop in volume.

:-)

Tim

[Shermy]

Hi again Javertim,

The MM-MCSM-4s have "alligator" clips that are completely adjustable. You can pretty much point them in any direction you like. When I'm recording non-stealthy, I usually set them up in a X-Y pattern, much like the Rode NT-4. I acheive this with a cheapo radioshack microphone clip. I then mount it on a mic stand raised to about 6 feet. I'm looking for a better way to set this up. Any suggestions are more than welcome.

As for stealthy recording, I've clipped them to my shirt under a button down collar back about a half inch so you can't see them from looking at me without already knowing they're there. The stereo seperation isn't quite as good, but not so distracting that it's a pain to listen to it.

My next recording of my own stuff, I'm going to experiment with mic-in with and without the batt box. To get back on the topic.

From what I've read, the Line-in is much cleaner because of the powersource (i.e. batt box with 9v battery) being a much cleaner source of power than the pre-amp because it is closer to the ultimate amount of power for the mics (around 9.5 volts). Also, if an external pre-amp that utilizes a 9v battery is connected to line-in, isn't it going to be much cleaner than the built in mic-in pre-amp on the recorder (i.e. less hiss because it's closer to that max voltage for the mic)?