Mic Choice? Sp-spsm1 Or Ecm-ms907

[scottykarate]

Hello, Im in need of a good quality mic for live (band) recording. Im using the sony nh-900 MD. and am presently using 2 PZM flatpan mics.

However, Im looking for a smaller, better (sonic) solution...so my thoughts are

The Sony ECM-MS907 Stereo Microphone

Link

Or the

Sound Professionals SP-SPSM1 Single Point Stereo Microphone

Link

Perhaps you have a better choice? Im looking for simple, small and stellar.. oh yeah and affordable....Thx , scotty

[dex Otaku]

I'd pick an M/S stereo mic like the 907 over any t-mic, personally.

I've had good experiences with both, mind you.

The 907 has a fairly limited range, though. Take a look at its specs compared to Sony's 957, which is also a M/S mic.

From Sonystyle.com -

MS-907 Specifications [MSRP ~$120USD, can be found for less]

• Type Mid-Side Stereo; Electret Condenser Microphone

• Directivity Uni-Directional (stereo); Directive angle 90 or 120 (switchable)

• Effective Output Level -56 dBm <+->4dB (0dB=1mW/Pa, 1kHz)

• Frequency Response - 100 - 15,000Hz

• Maximum Sound Pressure Level Input - more than 110dB SPL

• Dynamic Range - More than 80dB

versus -

MS-957 Specs [MSRP $299USD, can be found for much less]

• Type Mid-Side Stereo; Electret Condenser Microphone

• Directivity Uni-Directional (stereo); Directive angle 90 or 120° (switchable)

• Effective Output Level -45.8dBm ±3dB (0dB=1mW/Pa, 1kHz)

• Open Circuit Output Voltage -42dB ±3dB (0dB=1mW/Pa, 1kHz)

• Frequency Response 50 - 18,000Hz

• Maximum Sound Pressure Level Input >115dB SPL (at 1kHz, 1% distortion)

• Dynamic Range >90dB

If you're looking for quality sound in a small single-point package, there's also the delta mic from Reactive Sounds, found here:

http://www.reactivesounds.com/dt1.php

Its listed specs:

Reactive Sounds Delta microphone [$59.95CAD]

• Two high quality Electret microphone elements

• Sensitivity: -42 dB (+- 3db)

• Frequency Response: 20 - 20,000 Hz

• Signal to Noise Ratio: 58 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa

• Dynamic Range: 90dB

• Maximum Input Sound Level: 105 dB SPL (120db when used with our 'Juice box')

In any case, if you choose a t-mic or something like the delta, always use an extension cable to isolate the mic from mechanical noise caused by your recorder.

[A440]

The 907 has a fairly limited range, though.  Take a look at its specs compared to Sony's 957, which is also a M/S mic.

←

If you're recording a band, a bottom Frequency Response number of 100 MHz is too high.

The bottom note (low low A) on a piano is 27.5 hz, the next octave up is 55, the next is 110, etc., doubling with each octave. Be nice to your bass player and drummer and get a mic that will hear them.

[scottykarate]

Thanks to you both....seeing as iam 97.5% of the time using my MD to record bands..I will probably not opt for the 907, altohugh im sure its a great mic.

The Delta Microphone looks real interesting and im starting to become better/more familiar with the specs...

Sound Professionals SP-SPSM1 Single Point Stereo Microphone

Specs: Signal To Noise Ratio: 58 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa

Dynamic Range: 76dB without battery module, 91dB with battery module

Frequency Response: 20 - 20,000 Hz

Open Circuit Sensitivity: -42 dB (5.6 mV) re 1V at 1 Pa

Maximum Input Sound Level:105 dB SPL, 1 kHz at 1% T.H.D. (120dB when powered by our battery module)

Dimensions: approximately 1.75" long and 1.5" wide.

Delta Microphone

Specs: Specifications:

Two high quality Electret microphone elements

Sensitivity: -42 dB (+- 3db)

Frequency Response: 20 - 20,000 Hz

Signal to Noise Ratio: 58 dB, 1 kHz at 1 Pa

Dynamic Range: 90dB

Maximum Input Sound Level: 105 dB SPL (120db when used with our 'Juice box')

Heavy duty metal jack (1/8")

Anodized, aircraft aluminum housing

Id rather not use a battery booster/juice box and both provide 105dB without their being used...

Dynamic Range is still unclear to me....is 90dB good? Im leaning toward the Delta at this point.

Thanks again.

[dex Otaku]

Dynamic range = the maximum possible difference between loudest and quietest signal it can transduce. This is separate from signal to noise, though they are connected.

Chances are you will never encounter a situation where you can even use the full 76dB range of the SP mic; without a soundproof room and a very loud source, it's next to impossible. A higher dynamic range will mean more 'accuracy' with quieter sounds, though, which is also where the importance of the SNR really kicks in.

I had a post here last week with a bunch of links to info on mic specs.. if you do a search on my posts you'll be sure to find it [i'll probably update this reply later with the link, I'm just heading out at the moment is all].

re: 105dB...

Most music is mastered at around 90-95dB [A-weighted]. Rock concerts will vary from 95-115dB depending on how large the venue is. Arena rock is right up there near the pain threshold, whereas small clubs will blow you away with just 100dB.

105dB is loud enough to cover the vast majority of sources without distortion; that is, unless you want to record jet engines from close-by, or train horns, or other sources that regularly push the pain threshold [average being 120dB].

[scottykarate]

Think this is the post you were talking about.....if not, still some great info contained within, thx.

QUOTE

so let me get this straight: low vs. high sensitivity has a lot to do with change in dynamics rather than the loudness of the sounds around us? when you said that you were in the country with a train going 80 km/h, did this sound clip your mics or are they able to capture the train in general just not when it all of a sudden appears on the meters?

Well, no. Sensitivity has to do with the efficiency of the microphone at a given SPL. A high-sensitivity mic will put out a greater signal than a low-sensitivity one.

It makes sense that if your sensitivity increases, your dynamic range will as well. If the mic is more efficient but has the same self-noise, the SNR will increase accordingly, and so will the dynamic range.

With my train example - no, the mics never clipped [and neither did the preamp]. Generally speaking, most mics and solid-state preamps don't suffer from problems with transients [when it all of a sudden appears on the meters].

What I was implying when I said the thing about the train was that the train [or at least, the engine] was likely louder than 105dB, in which case the high-sens mics would have distorted.

Side note: if you're recording with the AGC on, -that- is when you'll have problems with those sudden attacks. This is a side-effect of AGC, not of the mics.

I never record important sources, natural sources, music &c. using AGC. I almost always leave AGC turned on for recording speech, though, as it so happens that the low-sensitivity version of the SP-TFB-2s has exactly the right sensitivity for everyday sounds to fall well below the threshold of the AGC's compression, meaning the AGC only kicks in when something really loud happens. Going by the rated sensitivity of the high-sens version, everyday sounds would constantly be riding at or just below said threshold, making the AGC far more obvious.

Perhaps it would help to try and explain what these mean:

QUOTE

Signal To Noise Ratio Low Sensitivity 58dB/High Sensitivity 62dB

Open Circuit Sensitivity Low Sensitivity-42dB/High Sensitivity-35dB

Maximum Input Sound Level 105dB/120dB

Dynamic Range 81dB/96dB

"Open circuit sensitivity" is a measurement of how much level a mic puts out for a given sound level. The current international standard usually uses a reference level of 94dB [1Pa] compared with 1V, i.e. a sensitivity of 0dB would have the microphone putting out 1V when transducing 94dB SPL; if we had mics like that, we wouldn't even need preamps!

See here for a good quick reference to SNR:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio

Likewise for dynamic range:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range

General audio measurement terminology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_system_measurements

While you're there, also check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording

And, for that matter, the category itself of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Audio_engineering

Note that what most companies refer to as "binaural microphones" in fact use variants of the A-B stereo mic'ing technique, and have nothing whatsoever to do with binaural recording; this is part of the reason why I don't actually like listening to many if not most recordings made this way over speakers, and most specifically the reason why I keep insisting on pointing out that most binaural mics are not even pseudo-binaural, let alone binaural. Quoted directly from the wikipedia entry on microphones:

"The A-B technique uses two omnidirectional microphones at an especial distance to each other (20 centimeters up to some meters). Stereo information consists in large time-of-arrival distances and some sound level differences. On playback, with too large A-B the stereo image can be perceived as somewhat unnatural, as if the left and right channel are independent sound sources, without an even spread from left to right. A-B recordings are not so good for mono playback because the time-of-arrival differences can lead to certain frequency components being canceled out and other being amplified, the so-called comb-filtering effect, but the stereo sound can be really convincing. If you use wide A-B for big orchestras, you can fill the center with another microphone. Then you get the famous "Decca tree", which has brought us many good sounding recordings.

[Soapm]

If you're looking for quality sound in a small single-point package, there's also the delta mic from Reactive Sounds, found here:

http://www.reactivesounds.com/dt1.php

←

Thanks for the tip, I just ordered one of the Delta mics to replace the $10 jobby i currently use. I like the recordings i get with the $10 jobby so the Delta can only be better. Hopefully I still won't need the extention cable as I currently get no motor noise...

[A440]

The Delta is bound to be more sensitive than your current mic--you will hear that motor. Definitely get an extension cable, it's only a few bucks and a world of difference.

[Reactive]

The Micpod was created for this reason alone. It's not always needed, however for the quite recordings i find it an absolute must. An extension cable costs less for sure, but then your left with "ummm now how am i going to mount this"

http://reactivesounds.com/mt1.php

Gerry

The Delta is bound to be more sensitive than your current mic--you will hear that motor. Definitely get an extension cable, it's only a few bucks and a world of difference.

←

[Christopher]

Reactive, you should sell that and the Delta as a combo package for a keen price. I think I'll get one of those..

Thought: What if the Delta had four mics on each side? Combined with that micPOD, it'd be a really interesting result.

[A440]

How about making a lapel clip+extension cable version of that Delta mic to blow the Sony ECM-DS70P out of the water?

[enriquez]

I just bought the SP-SPSM-1 and am not only extremely pleased with the sound but am surprised also. I didn't think it would record so naturally. I use it mainly to record practices with various groups I play with and am always pleased with the results.

Here's why I got it, maybe it will help. I was looking for an easily portable, small, stereo mic. It is stereo but I didn't really get it for it's stereo imaging. Face it, the elements are an inch or so apart and are omnidirectional. There's not too much seperation. But, for the size, frequency response, and cost, in my opinion it can't be beat. As far as mounting options, I considered the micPOD because of it's ease of use. Though ultimately I went with a female to male extension cable, the SP-DTS-9 folding tripod stand, and the SP-DTS-5 stand mount from Sound Professionals. I got this instead of the micPOD becuase I prefer individual parts over a complete unit. If one part fails you just replace it, plus the flexible legs of the micPOD look a bit less stable than the folding arms of the tripod from SP. If I have some money to spend sometime I'd like to buy a Delta mic too. It does seem to be much more durable than the SP-SPSM-1. This is a concern for me b/c my mic gets tossed in bags very often. Hope this is useful.

_Scott