DylanGarret Posted May 22, 2005 Report Share Posted May 22, 2005 (edited) I hope this is in the right forum, I didn't know if I should put it here or in Live Recording. Feel free to move it if you need to. Just for background, I'm using a HiMD MZ-NH900, Windows XP, latest version of Sonic Stage (3.1?). I lurk these forums a bit, and since people usually seem to have good answers. . .So I'm a full-time professional DJ, and that's what I use my MD for. We record and archive our live gigs and our radio shows on the MD, then later need to put them on the computer. Because these are mixed shows (everything is blended together), there can't be any gaps at all between tracks, or any audio indication that one track changes to another. That's kind of why I like the MD, because I can record hours, trackmark it, and it still plays through like one file.Up until recently, I'd trackmark the mix, move it to the PC, convert to wavs with Mark's program, then reassemble the parts in CoolEdit. Just a basic cut-and-paste job did the trick. Then I upgraded to the latest SonicStage version (3.whatever), with the Sony wav converter, and it all went to hell.For whatever reason, now, when I move the files from SonicStage to my PC, it repeats a short segment of the start of each track. So even if I import and go to arrange the files on my computer, the first track still ends at 25:30, but the next track starts at 25:27. Then when it ends at 28:30, the next track starts from 28:27.So, if you're still with me, this means that there's a little 3 second clip that gets repeated, if I just cut and paste the tracks together like I used to (3 seconds is an example, I can't tell if there's any set amount of time that gets repeated, but it's usually 1-3 seconds). I can't let it loop and repeat the segment like that, but at the same time, I haven't found any accurate and efficient way to edit it out by hand yet, even when I just get in there with CoolEdit and try to delete the loop manually.And of course, Sony's program being what it is, if I move the file to my PC as one file before I trackmark it, I lose the ability to edit them in on my MD later. Yay for copyright protection.I can't do the real-time method by going from 1/8" output to my soundcard's input, because my soundcard is crap, and always cuts out the left channel (go figure). I just tried it anyway, to see if it was really that bad, and it was. I'd hate to be a stickler for quality, but I can't tolerate something that sounds really assy, and with the mixes we're doing, I utilize both channels too much to be able to cut out one.Then I read about the USB/Digital Recording method, and it did work for quality. . . but Sonic Stage put in gaps that, even when I removed them by hand, still didn't line the tracks up correctly. Unless someone tells me an easier way, for future cases I'm going to use the USB Playback Realtime Recording method before I trackmark, and then laydown the tracks later (since I'm not importing, I figure it should let me). But I've still got a mix on there now, with 40-50 trackmarks on it, and need a decent way to get it onto my PC with some quality, or a way to transfer that won't leave me with those repeated intro segments. Even just a good program or method to edit them together, and cut out those loops. . . I don't know. I saw someone else in another thread (Volta-something) mention this same problem, but didn't see an answer with it, so I guess it's not just me. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks guys.EDIT: Oh, I read through all those FAQs, did a search, and scanned a few pages of topics, to see if this had already been posted. I didn't catch anything, but if it's already been answered somewhere else, feel free to just point me in that direction. Thanks again. Edited May 22, 2005 by DylanGarret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Low Volta Posted May 22, 2005 Report Share Posted May 22, 2005 I don't know. I saw someone else in another thread (Volta-something) mention this same problem, but didn't see an answer with it, so I guess it's not just me.←hm, guess you're referring to me...but I think the person who reported these problems (the duplication of beginning/ends) before actually was 'ozpeter'...you could check out this thread which is actually kinda working on the same questions (and still is active!) but hasen't really produced a definite answer... perhaps share (a short version of) your problem again there (...I'm quite sure the mods wont mind a slightly altered double post for once )about the problem of 'not being able to edit tracks on the player anymore after you have uploaded them as one track to your PC'... even when you have uploaded them as separate tracks, you can't edit them anymore on the player, I believe... but then again, as I stated in my last post in this thread: You can record in PCM and Hi-SP with Hi-MD and you can edit them on the spot, plus later you can upload these edited tracks and perform basic combine/split-actions in SS and convert them to wav and even edit them more in an audio-editor if needed; at this point the DRM put on by SS is gone so the resulting tracks are free to use any way you want, except for editing further on the player, as they are PC-tracks by now...I just really don't see why that last thing would be that big a limitation, how often do you need to (re-)edit tracks? and why does that have to be done on the MD-player (the second time, I'm not talking about on-the-spot editing/titling, which is still possible with Hi-MD)?...so at least to me, since uploading of long tracks is relatively safe nowadays (with SS3.1) and since the built in wav-converter or Marcnet's tool allow me to convert my recordings to non-DRM'ed clean wav's... I just made a habit of backing-up these 'original' wav's as Masters (if necessary split up to fit on CD/DVD), and work on from there... as long as the one-upload-limit survives, I think it's absolutely useless to keep a master version on MD or to further edit on MD... do all you want on PC with the non-DRM'ed stuff and download to the player again if neededthis would eliminate, in my view, any reason not to upload a recording with trackmarks deleted on the machine...by the way, have you tested whether a wav shows duplicated bits if you upload in tracks, combine in SS (using 'edit/combine') then convert to wav...as if it doesn't have the duplication anymore, you could keep the tracked-up disc AND have a gapless&duplicationless wav...Greeting, Volta (something ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanGarret Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Ugh, I just spent 20 minutes trying to "work" in SonicStage, and I swear, this program is gonna give me heartburn. . .Long story short, I tried uploading the trackmarked songs into SS, and using the Combine fuction, and I still ended up with the extended intro/repeated segment problem. As far as answering "and why does that have to be done on the MD-player," this is exactly why; I still want trackmarked sets on my MD for my personal listening, so I'm not stuck having to blindly fastforward through a 3 hour long track, but I want to move it to my PC before I trackmark it, so I'm not stuck with these stupid glitches/loops. Man, it's amazing I love my MD so much, given how ass-backwards the software and functionality is designed.So, going by what you said, it sounds like there's no way to get around this, huh? I mean, aside of going in and manually editing out the loops, which still ends up sounding assy, since I haven't found any way to perfectly select and delete just the repeated segment yet. Argh, I don't even know what to do at this point.Is there some other program that we can use to get the files off the MD? One that would remove just the track between the trackmarks, no more, no less? Or one that would let me playback sound from my MD on my computer, through the USB cable, but without the gaps between tracks that SS has? Man, there's gotta be something.Thanks for the help, by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozpeter Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 As mentioned above, I've encountered this duplication of material with Hi-SP, not PCM, although I've only encountered very small (say 1/3 sec) duplications or less.What format are you using - HiLP, Hi-SP, PCM? Have you tried the alternatives?The only way to get your recordings onto the PC digitally are by using Total Recorder or SonicStage, with the attendant problems of either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Low Volta Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 I'm sorry to hear the problem isn't fixed yet,was kinda hoping the SS-combine way avoided the segment-repetition, but it seems this is just another thing SS doens't do (but I must say, I personally haven't noticed these things before... but nowadays, I mostly record in Hi-SP with trackmark set at 60 minutes or none at all) As far as answering "and why does that have to be done on the MD-player," this is exactly why; I still want trackmarked sets on my MD for my personal listening, so I'm not stuck having to blindly fastforward through a 3 hour long track, but I want to move it to my PC before I trackmark it, so I'm not stuck with these stupid glitches/loops.←hm, I see your point...but I don't see the problem. It would require an additional step, but...you can cater to both wishes without any problem...you record your show without any trackmarks or you erase the marks on the machine (while paused, search the beginning of a 'track' and 'mark' appears on he screen, press T-mark button and the trackmark is gone, without doubling anything hopefully) -> upload to SS and save as wav (or convert with Marcnet's Hi-MD renderer), this removes all DRM/copyright issues too -> @ this stage you have 2 options: A) use a sound editing program to cut the one wav into 'tracks' (you have to cut at a certain number of frames or right after a frame or something like it, something to do with the 44.1Hz standard for CDs, otherwise it will leave gaps when burned to CD or played on Hi-MD, as this last uses one the 44.1Hz standard too, but ask someone with decent knowledge about this as I only vaguely remember this from reading it here on MDCF somewhere) B ) or use something like Nero-burner to create a cd(-image on your PC) with trackmarks added (Nero correctly puts 'em in so they won't gap) -> import the wav-tracks created via (A) into SS and download to Hi-MD OR use SimpleBurner to download the CD or the CD-image created in (B ) to Hi-MD -> you now have your set in wav (whole or tracked up) on your PC and an MD with the set all tracked up (i.e. both wished fulfilled)Is there sound degradation? No or very very little, at least if you record in a high quality (Hi-SP or PCM), which you should... the conversion to wav doesn't degrade anything, so the set on your PC is the same quality as the recording. The transfer back to Hi-MD (unless in PCM in SB) converts to a 'lossy format' (any Atrac version) but again, if you stick with higher quality (Hi-SP would be my recommendation) the loss compared to the originally recorded MD, wouldn't be noticeable!hope this helps to solve the dilemma,Volta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanGarret Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 (edited) Yeah, but you got it backwards. I don't need trackmarks for the wav/PC version. That the one I want as one long file. I'm not burning them to CDs. But my actual Minidisc, the one I keep for personal listening use, I do want trackmarks, so I'm not stuck fastforwarding through one big file, trying to find songs. If I get rid of the trackmarks and upload it to the PC, that's fine for the PC/wav version, but then I can't stick the marks back into the MD, and I'm permenently stuck with one long file on it. I've done that on a few other mixes, and it's just annoying, having an hour or two hour long track, that I'm trying to fast-foward and rewind through while in my car, or on the train, to find the part I want to hear.I just need a way so I can have it as one track on my computer, but still have it trackmarked on my PC. I don't get why something seemingly so simple is this hard to pull off, damn.EDIT: Actually, I think I just figured it out. I remove the trackmarks, have it as one long file. Then I use the digital real-time recording method, via USB, which will get me the one long, gapless, loopless track. Then, since I never actually "uploaded" it through SS, I should be able to re-edit the tracks back in later. I'll hafta redo all the trackmarking and names and whatnot, but whatever, it's just another hour's worth of work or so. I've already killed that much time writing here, heh.Here's hoping. . .EDIT Again: Oh god, you've got to be kidding me. I'm ready to throw this machine through the window. So back when I first recorded this mix, I plugged it in, and in SS, sorted the tracks into three folders/groups. You know, for ease of listening. I just removed the trackmarks and did the recording trick on the first group just fine, but just realized that I can't remove the marks from the other two groups, since technically I "moved" the files there. And once you touch the files in SonicStage, boom, you're locked out. So yeah, now I can't even remove the trackmarks. I don't get why Sony has to make me hate them so much. I really do like this machine. Why why WHY do they have to go out of their way to sabotage themselves?Though now I'm sure we're getting into futile territory, is there any kind of hack or Service Mode tweak or something I can do to make these tracks editable again? Eh, guess not. Now I really am just hosed. Edited May 23, 2005 by DylanGarret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanGarret Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Ugh, screw it. I'm just going to uninstall SS, and try to reinstall my older version off the software, the one that didn't add the loops/extended intros to imported files. It's just too much of a headache otherwise, at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozpeter Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 But.... if you load it to the PC as one long recording, track mark it there in wave format (you're using Cool Edit I note, so if you follow the cue/merge/batch routine as if for burning to CD, you've got a collection of files, one file per track, right?) then copy that back to the MD (on another disk if you don't feel comfortable wiping the original yet), then apart from the transfer time taken, you're home free surely? If you record in PCM format in the first place, and/or copy back to MD in PCM format, you've got no issues with double compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 There are several threads in which I have mentioned before that the only truly reliable way to do gapless editing and burning is to work with all contiguous tracks as a single file.When using Marcnet's HiMDRenderer, you will -always- experience minor variances in actual track lengths with its output, meaning you have to edit all track transitions.I have to be honest, and this isn't a slight toward marcnet by any means, but since SS 2.3 I've found the reliability factor has increased significantly. I don't use HiMDRenderer at all any more. With SS 3.0 and later, simply right-clicking an uploaded track in your library and using "Save as wave" is far more accurate in terms of track lengths than HiMDRenderer is [marcnet would not dispute this, as he has pointed it out himself].The trick is to combine all contiguous tracks using SS's combine feature, then add trackmarks in your burning software. This totally avoids having to edit track transitions in any way, and fully maintains gapless editing and playback as long as you keep things as a single file through to the CD layout stage.I have only had SS crap out once during a track combine, and it was caused by something else that was running that brought the system to its knees. Note that combine works best with only a few tracks at a time, because it takes time to do - SS can appear to be locked up during combines when it's actually working just fine. If you must combine a load of tracks all at once, I advise walking away and letting it do its job. If you interrupt the process, it will damage the tracks it has combined up to the interruption, rendering them unplayable in your library.If you don't believe me on these things, I have been recording a lot of things in the past few months and have been using this method since I got my HiMD last August. In the past 6 weeks alone, I have recorded, uploaded, and edited at least 20 hours of recordings, the majority of which were completely gapless to begin with [usually 40-100 minutes in length]. I never experience problems doing things this way [and haven't since I decided to stick with "one big file, internal regions/trackmarks" method around 2000].As I just said in another thread: use the combine function, and use it well. There is no need to combine tracks on the recorder itself, which is basically just wasting your time playing with the fiddly little buttons to do something that SS can do automatically.As far as SS's annoyances in how tracks are sorted, &c., my advice is this: Don't use SS to play or in fact do anything else. Use it as your reference library ONLY. Upload tracks, immediately combine the contiguous ones, and then export them as WAV to deal with them as you wish. I no longer use SS for anything but uploading, combining, and exporting [as well as downloading MP3s]. Anything else is basically a waste of time with it.Hint: make sure that the option to record using auto-grouping is on. Generally speaking, I combine all tracks within a group, then export. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Low Volta Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 But.... if you load it to the PC as one long recording, track mark it there in wave format (you're using Cool Edit I note, so if you follow the cue/merge/batch routine as if for burning to CD, you've got a collection of files, one file per track, right?) then copy that back to the MD (on another disk if you don't feel comfortable wiping the original yet), then apart from the transfer time taken, you're home free surely? If you record in PCM format in the first place, and/or copy back to MD in PCM format, you've got no issues with double compression.←indeed, as I already mentioned twice... the method of combining can differ...as I prefer Dex's way of uploading in tracks, combining inSS (hasn't produced double bits yet) and converting to wav, editing, adding trackmark (or cutting it up ) then reimporting in SS, downloading to MD... but it seems this guy just doesn't understand that MD is a REwritable medium... just download the tracked version to MD and keep a long/combined version on the PC!I would say, DylanGarret, just read this thread again, quietly from the beginning...the sollution (a number of them!) has been presentedreverting back to an elder version of SS is completely on your own risk, and don't forget to back-up your library, otherwise, it could be even more troubles...and btw, this won't let you upload recordings again that you have already uploaded before...so, it won't help in that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killroy Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 I just need a way so I can have it as one track on my computer, but still have it trackmarked on my PC. I don't get why something seemingly so simple is this hard to pull off, damn.Hello,maybe, this procedure offers exactly what you are looking for? (In case you did not already smash your MD unit as you announced in this thread :-))Cheers - Killroy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 I have to be honest, and this isn't a slight toward marcnet by any means, but since SS 2.3 I've found the reliability factor has increased significantly. I don't use HiMDRenderer at all any more. With SS 3.0 and later, simply right-clicking an uploaded track in your library and using "Save as wave" is far more accurate in terms of track lengths than HiMDRenderer is [marcnet would not dispute this, as he has pointed it out himself].I have been hesitant thus far to use the built-in WAV converter... The standalone converter that sony put out soon after HiMD was initially released was a nightmare for me... Automatically splitting longer recordings, etc... I haven't taken the time to test out the built-in converter in SS3.1 based on that previous experience...What is the longest recording you have converted with this method? My initial recordings that were screwed by the previous version were approx 2 hours... but the program split the file after about 70min,.,,, which was not at all a good place for a split... Most of my recordings that I upload are fairly consistent improvisational meanderings with no real room for track marks... Therefore I dont really have that as an option for the longer recordings.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 I have been hesitant thus far to use the built-in WAV converter... The standalone converter that sony put out soon after HiMD was initially released was a nightmare for me... Automatically splitting longer recordings, etc... I haven't taken the time to test out the built-in converter in SS3.1 based on that previous experience...What is the longest recording you have converted with this method? My initial recordings that were screwed by the previous version were approx 2 hours... but the program split the file after about 70min,.,,, which was not at all a good place for a split... Most of my recordings that I upload are fairly consistent improvisational meanderings with no real room for track marks... Therefore I dont really have that as an option for the longer recordings..←I'm not sure how long, actually. I have never had it split anything I exported.The old standalone wave converter split things at the length of a data CD-R. It seemed silly to me, but again, I never ran into it. I'm pretty sure I've exported recordings in excess of 100 minutes without them being split, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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