HI-MD Recording RIP

[e1ghtyf1ve]

Why is pointing out the fact that Sony hasn't got it's "act together" and has been struggling to compete in the consumer electronics for some time flamebait? Sony is currently trying to turn the company around, new CEO, restructuring, etc.  Get some coffee and go visit the corporate information section of their web site.

And what's all that sarcasm about?

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Ok, I think I'll bite: The heads-up on the new M-Audio pocket recorder was in my opinion a great idea and very informative. However, calling the post "Hi-MD Recording RIP" seems premature at best, and apparently for some folks could be considered trolling at worst. Also, I'm not seeing a connection between the topic you introduced and Sony's restructuring. M-Audio changed their name, got bought out by Avid and has restructured about a year ago. Companies do this occasionally. It happens.

I for one am always looking for alternatives and better methods of recording sound, particularly in a pocketable format. Thanks again for the informative post. If the Microtrack 2496 went for $249.99 MSRP, had removable media costing $10-$20, and ran on ordinary batteries, then it would already be in my shopping cart.

Cheers

[Syrius]

Yup. Allowing unlimited uploads and removing the DRM from Atrac files, from one release of SS to the next one, qualifies as getting their act together IMHO, at least for MD users.

Besides, my signature is a take on that of another member's. (Mutant 1345):

"God came to earth and said to the chicken, Ye Chicken shall cross the road. And the chicken crossed the road and there was much rejoicing..."

And knowing that Sony's people sometimes view this forum, well, I decided to change mine as some sort of subtle/not so subtle suggestion.

[robin726]

It's perhaps not unusual that people here should be so defensive of minidisc, but can I point out some obvious advantage this new product has?

It can record at up to 24-bit 96kHz. Those extra bits sure look good to me.

It can run off a DC power supply, so you have infinite record time if you're close to power. That rocks.

It has larger and better controls, though exactly how ergonomic it is remains to be seen.

It has phantom power so you can use pro mics.

It has something other than crappy 1/8" inputs and so is more robust. Ditto for audio out.

It mounts as a mass storage device so extra software is not needed.

Copy protection, what copy protection?

So long as the UI is not crap and the mic preamps are better than minidisc (wouldn't be difficult) this device certainly has a market. In fact, without the need for an external pre-amp and battery power, it works out cheaper than the equivalent minidisc, so long as you're not buying loads of CF cards. (The biggest downside is the price of these.)

No, it's not perfect but certainly will have a niche unless there's something braindead wrong with it.

I have a write-up on my site.

[e1ghtyf1ve]

From Doug Oade's site:

"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be

bypassed or improved. Fine for MP3 users or ENG but not so great for

tapers or audiophiles. Think JB3/MD analog input sound quality."

MP3?! Not an audiophile format in my opinion, sorry.

Some simple math reality:

At about 6dB per bit, 24 bits require 144dB S/N ratio to be fully utilized. 16 bits give theoretically about 96dB dynamic range possible. Most professional *pocket* equipment have inputs performing closer to 90dB S/N. So even they are really only using 15 bits of information over the noise floor. Dithering (adding noise) at low signal levels smooths things out, of course. Turn up your CD player/DAT/Minidisc 16 bit machine's output volume to the max during very quiet music passages and you will hear the noise added and what I'm talking about.

Sorry to bore and irritate the pros here, just trying to get everyone else on the same page.

I would be very surprised indeed if the analog inputs of the Microtrack recorder had S/N ratios approaching 18 bits equivalent, or 108dB. This remains the weak link in the chain. If it has the performance similar to the Edirol R1, we're looking at maybe 14 bits effective resolution due to the high noise floor. Reading owner reviews educated me greatly here.

*Unless* M-Audio can pull a rabbit out of a hat (and I hope/pray they will), their product will sound as good/bad as Hi-MD. But at this price point for the recorder and media, no, they can't compete. All IMHO as always.

Cheers

[Christopher]

I'd like to see a M-Audio forum as helpful as ours, anyways..

Or perhaps..who knows? God willing, we'll all see each other again at "M-Audio Community Forums: the Search for more Money"

[rirsa]

I'll grant that the "RIP" in the subject line was a little over-dramatic.

Here's the broader point (note that my point is about recorders; not players):

Three or four years ago solid state recorders consisted of either cheap voice recorders made by Olympus, Sony and others that had very low audio specs or professional machines that cost $1000+. Minidisc didn't really have any competition in the quality but afforable portable recording market (unless you allow Nomad JB3 kludges and the like). Two years ago Marantz came out with the PMD670, cost $600-$700. They sold a lot of these to broadcasters, legal users, business users, government, educational users, etc. (i.e. the users that make up the bulk of the portable recording market and value unrestricted transfer to PC). In the last 6 months Edirol, Marantz and now M-audio have all come out with new, smaller CF recorders, cost $370 to $500. They have pro recording features not available on any recorders available in this price range. Are they perfect? No. At this price point there are compromises. If you want super clean preamps you have to spend money (e.g. Sound Devices) but for a large section of the portable audio recording market machines like the PMD660 are a good compromise. A lot of users who used to use minidisc are now buying these machines. We'll see more of these machines in the future. The cost may come down further and features will be improved. The cost of CF cards is also falling rapidly. Interestingly some of the cheap voice recorders are also getting much better in terms of audio quality (e.g. check out specs of Olympus DS-2). Basically the minidisc recording market is getting squeezed at the low end and the high end and the pressure will only increase.

My guess is that Sony is being driven by competition to loosen some of the restrictions --especially upload to computer--that it previously imposed on MD. A little late I think. Their postion would have been much better if they responded to user demands three or four years ago. This is what happens, I guess when you have an electronics company merged with a content company. See http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.02/sony.html (which was referenced by Mindisc.org--see News Archive).

Also interesting that Minidisco is now listing both the R-1 and M-Audio machine or their site...I don't remember them selling anything but MD recorders.

Edited August 1, 2005 by rirsa

[robin726]

From Doug Oade's site:

"Sadly this thing uses a digital level control that probably cannot be

bypassed or improved. Fine for MP3 users or ENG but not so great for

tapers or audiophiles. Think JB3/MD analog input sound quality."

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It would be good if you would give references for your quotes so the rest of us can follow along. The one you excerpt is here.

I for one do not think that a thread full of "probably" and "hopefully" and "might" and references to friends in Spain with inside scoops is to be taken with much less than a pilar of salt. It remains to be seen what the gain stage is like and how the mic pres perform. This will only happen when people actually have the unit in hand.

MP3?!  Not an audiophile format in my opinion, sorry.

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OK, but even if you do trust what Doug is saying, he is indicating that at worst the Microtrack is as good as MD. Both record in uncompressed audio, so the reference to MP3 is a red herring.

At about 6dB per bit, 24 bits require 144dB S/N ratio to be fully utilized.  16 bits give theoretically about 96dB dynamic range possible.  Most professional *pocket* equipment have inputs performing closer to 90dB S/N.  So even they are really only using 15 bits of information over the noise floor.  Dithering (adding noise) at low signal levels smooths things out, of course. 

I am not thrilled with the supposed capabilities of hi-res recording because, as you say, it is likely only a textbook possibility. Still, if they can squeeze out 18 bits I would be happy. The difference between 16 and 18 bits can make a real difference after mixing and summing of multiple channels etc. Anything more is esoteric nonsense IMHO. :-)

Also, the possibilities of 24/96 means that the output of a truly awesome input stage can be hooked up to the Microtrack -- for those with more money than I and a greater need for "perfect" audio. This is a possibility Oade refers to.