Morlok Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 (edited) When you upload analogue recs, you get copy protected OMA files.But if you convert those files to the same bitrate and with "add copy protection" cleared, you get a copy with no protection. No redundant conversion is made.You can't do the same for optically inputed tracks. You'll have to select another bitrate.<I forgot: all about HiMD, MZ-RH910, SS specs - see later.>Just was glad to discover that, 'cause could be usefull for me.At this time I can't check, if these files are accepted on another comp.Could anyone try this, to make sure? Thanks in advance.Attention!! Files are OMAs, please change the extentions!One uploaded[attachmentid=1308] and one unprotected[attachmentid=1307].Analogue_no_copy_prot.zipAnalogue_copy_prot.zip Edited January 17, 2006 by Morlok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 #1 doesn't work#2 does workHas this also been the case with SS3.2 thatWhen you upload analogue recs, you get copy protected OMA files.You can't do the same for optically inputed tracks. You'll have to select another bitrate.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 (edited) #1 doesn't work#2 does workHas this also been the case with SS3.2 thatWhen you upload analogue recs, you get copy protected OMA files.You can't do the same for optically inputed tracks. You'll have to select another bitrate.?Yeah. Thanks a lot.Sorry, I don't know. Maybe, anyone else. Only can show my specs:SonicStage : 3.3.03.10270SonicStage Add-on for Personal Audio Download : 3.3.00.09270OpenMG Secure Module : 4.3.00.08302Music Clip, NW-S4, NW-E7 and NW-E10 : 4.3.00.08302NW-E2, NW-E3, NW-E5 and NW-E8P : 4.3.00.08302MagicGate Memory Stick Device : 4.3.00.08302Net MD : 4.3.00.08302CD Walkman : 4.3.00.08302OpenMG CD : 4.3.00.08302Hi-MD : 4.3.00.08302HDWM : 4.3.00.08302M.S. PRO : 4.3.00.08302EMD Plug-in: 1.2.0.9CD-R Writing Module(Audio CD/ATRAC CD/MP3 CD) : 3.3.00.09270Px Engine: 2.4.35.500(not all applicable, but let it be)Maybe, it depends on OMG Module?Don't think, it's a bug, since Sony declines somehow copy protection. But the way it works looks strange. Edited January 17, 2006 by Morlok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 It's true that this may work, but I question why one would want to do this.First, you can export as WAV or use HiMDRenderer. This is one way to free uploaded tracks of DRM.Second, re-encoding the track immediately adds a second generation of loss to the recording.Third, if teh destination is another HiMD, you can write it back to disc anyway, regardless of the DRM. Also, regardless of whether there's DRM on it or not, you can't copy the tracks off another HiMD anyway, making the DRM issue completely irrelevant in that case.If what you want is a redistributable format, using atrac/3/plus [even without DRM] is limiting your audience to people already running SonicStage. If re-encoding is being done specifically to "unlock" the files, then moving to another, more open and more commonly-used format would seem far more practical, whether that format is lossy [still incurring a 2nd generation of loss] or not. To me it's an interesting exercise but not one with any really practical outcome. My question is what your intentions in actually doing this are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 (edited) First, you can export as WAV or use HiMDRenderer. This is one way to free uploaded tracks of DRM.Second, re-encoding the track immediately adds a second generation of loss to the recording.If what you want is a redistributable format, using atrac/3/plus [even without DRM] is limiting your audience to people already running SonicStage. If re-encoding is being done specifically to "unlock" the files, then moving to another, more open and more commonly-used format would seem far more practical, whether that format is lossy [still incurring a 2nd generation of loss] or not. To me it's an interesting exercise but not one with any really practical outcome. My question is what your intentions in actually doing this are?1. Not applicable.The main idea is that i can exchange records via inet. With a limited amount of persons.My consciense is clear, since i'm not gonna sell it anyway.2. There is no re-encoding! SS is not so stupid as it seems. Actually, i was surprised by that. Time that it takes significantly differs from time needed to convert HiLP->PCM->HiLP. Or like that.Well, you may laugh, but it is some kind of collector's passion.A radio translation (some kind of live recording, isn't it?). Books narrated to the sound of electronic music. Like an audiobook, but better, because of the narrator. Actually, there is a collection on some sites, but all in MP3s, mainly digitized from audiotapes. Also have some. I'd like to have at least a part recorded primarily in A3+ (i bought just recently, what a pity), HiLP - I think, is the best solution, considering that those MP3s are round 128. The only thing that rests - is to find such a crazy person, who has been making the same for some longer time There are no such fans, I think, who store it in WAV for me to convert to HiLP (much better than from MP3).Such an idee fixe .Probably, it will stay just an exercise. i'm so-o-o-o lazy most of time Edited January 18, 2006 by Morlok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 1. Not applicable.The main idea is that i can exchange records via inet. With a limited amount of persons.Given that you can exchange tracks of almost any format, I'm assuming that 100% of the users you're exchanging with are also HiMD owners, in which case this makes perfect sense.2. There is no re-encoding! SS is not so stupid as it seems. Actually, i was surprised by that. Time that it takes significantly differs from time needed to convert HiLP->PCM->HiLP. Or like that.Having just tried this myself, I must say that I'm extremely surprised to find that indeed, no re-encoding takes place when doing this; SS creates an exact audio-duplicate of the track which is stripped of inhibiting DRM in the "optimized files" folder.I'm totally stunned now. Well, you may laugh, but it is some kind of collector's passion.A radio translation (some kind of live recording, isn't it?). Books narrated to the sound of electronic music. Like an audiobook, but better, because of the narrator. Actually, there is a collection on some sites, but all in MP3s, mainly digitized from audiotapes. Also have some. I'd like to have at least a part recorded primarily in A3+ (i bought just recently, what a pity), HiLP - I think, is the best solution, considering that those MP3s are round 128. The only thing that rests - is to find such a crazy person, who has been making the same for some longer time There are no such fans, I think, who store it in WAV for me to convert to HiLP (much better than from MP3).Such an idee fixe .Probably, it will stay just an exercise. i'm so-o-o-o lazy most of time Do you mean like radio dramas? I engineered one of those myself a couple of years ago, it was honestly the most interesting work I've ever done. I grew up listening to a number of similar kind of projects [from Danny Kaye reading Hans Christian Anderson and "stories from other countries" to mysteries and ghost stories for children presented by Alfred Hitchcock]. I wish I could get my son to take an interest in such things, I'm sure by the time he's a teenager things like the Hitchhiker's Guide might make him laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 The drm removal trick is rather old news. I'm still not sure whether ss3.2 has drm'ed uploaded files by default or not. I think there was an option to choose iirc. Maybe i'll downgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 (edited) Do you mean like radio dramas? I engineered one of those myself a couple of years ago, it was honestly the most interesting work I've ever done. I grew up listening to a number of similar kind of projects [from Danny Kaye reading Hans Christian Anderson and "stories from other countries" to mysteries and ghost stories for children presented by Alfred Hitchcock]. I wish I could get my son to take an interest in such things, I'm sure by the time he's a teenager things like the Hitchhiker's Guide might make him laugh.I was not sure, what was it's name in english. Yes, like that.Great, that you understand.You may ask, so it's in Russia.Earlier there were even real radio dramas. I mean performance, presented by various people, with sounds etc. Mainly for children. Not sure, if they still exist. Like stories or fairy-tales on that good old vinyls, if you know. Edited January 18, 2006 by Morlok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 (edited) Well this is pretty fantastic news! Now I can just archive the non-DRM'ed OMA files of everything I record and not have to convert them to WAV>FLAC first... That will save alot of space!! Thanks for the good news!! Edited January 18, 2006 by raintheory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 stripped of inhibiting DRM in the "optimized files" folder.OK, someone make this ultra-clear to me: Does this mean you can copy these .oma files as data and then play them on someone else's SonicStage? I.e., you CAN back up your library (of your own analogue recordings) and move it to another computer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 OK, someone make this ultra-clear to me: Does this mean you can copy these .oma files as data and then play them on someone else's SonicStage? I.e., you CAN back up your library (of your own analogue recordings) and move it to another computer?Would you like me to send you a file so we can find out for ourselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Would you like me to send you a file so we can find out for ourselves?Give the second *.oma file in the first post of this thread a try. It should work. At least it did for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Give the second *.oma file in the first post of this thread a try. It should work. At least it did for me.Heh. I'm really not on the ball these days, am I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 You know... I'm a bit surprised that nobody stumbled across this before now... Thanks Morlok!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I can't open Morlok's zipped files with WinZip or Winace--both claim the archive is damaged. Could someone PM me the unzipped .oma file? I've gotta see this for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 I can't open Morlok's zipped files with WinZip or Winace--both claim the archive is damaged. Could someone PM me the unzipped .oma file? I've gotta see this for myself.Like (s)he wrote, these are not .zip files, you need to rename the extensions to .oma instead of trying to unpack them. Anyway, i'll send you a copy of the rennamed file so you can see for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 These are not .zip files, you need to rename the extensions to .oma instead of trying to unpack them. Thanks GM, that'll teach me to skim the fine print. Anyway, having renamed both of Morlok's files to .oma....they both play in my SonicStage--the "copy protected" one too. Leaving me more confused than ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) The drm removal trick is rather old news. I'm still not sure whether ss3.2 has drm'ed uploaded files by default or not. I think there was an option to choose iirc. Maybe i'll downgrade.What was that trick? I'm a recent user of SS, but it seems not to be a worldwide known thing, we're talking about.....they both play in my SonicStage--the "copy protected" one too. Leaving me more confused than ever.Well, me too That's interesting.What version of SS/OMG? Greenmachine told, it was not accepted.Actually, i don't know how this protection works, but if there is no complete encryption, it is only the choice of the software, whether to allow or not to allow. Anyway, if you look in Properties->File Info tab, there is a difference in "Copy protection". Available vs None.Just an opinion, but i'd prefer to store my (at least, analogue) records with "None". So i'll have no problems with future releases of SS (probably) and no more strange Backup Tools.Umhhhhhh, sweet paranoya... Is there any way to make oma files with those strange restrictions for playback time/count etc ? Edited January 19, 2006 by Morlok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) Has anyone tried un-DRMing one of their own files, transferring to HiMD, then importing it onto another computer from the HiMD itself? Edited January 19, 2006 by raintheory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Has anyone tried un-DRMing one of their own files, transferring to HiMD, then importing it onto another computer from the HiMD itself?First, "Tracks transferred to the Hi-MD from another computer cannot be transferred back to My Library on your computer." - as stated in Help.Seems, there's no difference, how they were recorded.Second, as i can see, you can't even upload previously transferred tracks, but with original file deleted from My Library. Well, i didn't try it on another comp. Sorry if you knew these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 First, "Tracks transferred to the Hi-MD from another computer cannot be transferred back to My Library on your computer." - as stated in Help.Seems, there's no difference, how they were recorded.Second, as i can see, you can't even upload previously transferred tracks, but with original file deleted from My Library. Well, i didn't try it on another comp. Sorry if you knew these things.In a pinch, if you've deleted the file from the computer, you can re-import with HiMDRenderer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 In a pinch, if you've deleted the file from the computer, you can re-import with HiMDRenderer.Having finally downloaded the most recent version of HiMDRenderer, I am happy to correct my own previous assertions that this is impossible.Yes, you can use HiMDRenderer to import the tracks directly from a source disc, including tracks that are not recorded on the unit but were downloaded using SS. And yes, they are copied digitally.My one remaining question [which I cannot verify without having another machine with SS installed on it at hand] is whether a disc created from another SS installation [and thereby having DRM info completely unrelated to the "decoding" machine] can be copied this way. If such is the case, then HiMDRenderer is now capable of fully circumventing HiMD's DRM directly from the discs themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raintheory Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 No dice, Dex. Just tried it out and this is the result: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 No dice, Dex. Just tried it out and this is the result:Ah, well.At the least, DRM is broken within the closed chain of a single SS installation.An interesting twist on this, if you think about it, is that full "fair use" has now been re-enabled in the process, even if there is generation loss to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 What version of SS/OMG? SonicStage : 3.3.03.10270SonicStage Add-on for Personal Audio Download : 3.3.00.09270OpenMG Secure Module : 4.3.00.08302 (ditto for all the other OMG usages)EMD Plug-in: 1.2.0.9CD-R Writing Module(Audio CD/ATRAC CD/MP3 CD) : 3.3.00.09270Px Engine: 2.4.35.500I still don't understand why both your "copy-protected" and non-copy-protected versions play in my computer. Any theories, folks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmachine Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 What was that trick? I'm a recent user of SS, but it seems not to be a worldwide known thing, we're talking about.I've read about encoding to the same bitrate with drm unchecked in a thread a while ago, but iirc the informaiton was not really topic-related and thus somehow 'lost'. I can't be bothered to find it again though. It might be a good thing to make the information more public.Well, me too That's interesting.What version of SS/OMG? Greenmachine told, it was not accepted.Actually, i don't know how this protection works, but if there is no complete encryption, it is only the choice of the software, whether to allow or not to allow.I have tried to play these files before you have edited your post. If i try again now, both files are playable. Strange. I'm using these versions and have no idea about the relevance of each, so it's all included:SonicStage : 3.3.03.10270SonicStage Add-on for Personal Audio Download : 3.3.00.09270OpenMG Secure Module : 4.3.00.08302MagicGate Memory Stick Device : 4.3.00.08302NW-E2, NW-E3, NW-E5 and NW-E8P : 4.3.00.08302OpenMG CD : 4.3.00.08302M.S. PRO : 4.3.00.08302CD Walkman : 4.3.00.08302Hi-MD : 4.3.00.08302Music Clip, NW-S4, NW-E7 and NW-E10 : 4.3.00.08302HDWM : 4.3.00.08302Net MD : 4.3.00.08302EMD Plug-in: 1.2.0.9CD-R-Schreibmodul(Audio CD/ATRAC CD/MP3 CD) : 3.3.00.09270Px Engine: 2.4.35.500[/code] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 (edited) Maybe on previous versions of SS it will not be played? No idea.Ah, f*** it. Edited January 24, 2006 by Morlok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Think, there is one more thing left. Here is a track recorded via digital input. Pure curiosity. Please rename to *.OMA if you decide to check it out!!! [attachmentid=1336]Optical_input.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 It demands rights info and doesn't play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Thanks, A440. That was expected.And the only conclusion i can make, is that Sony doesn't care anymore about analogue recs.By the way, even when you copy tracks from deck to deck via optical, there will be no complete identity. I mean, there are such conversions performed ATRAC -> PCM -> ATRAC. Is that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Thanks, A440. That was expected.And the only conclusion i can make, is that Sony doesn't care anymore about analogue recs.By the way, even when you copy tracks from deck to deck via optical, there will be no complete identity. I mean, there are such conversions performed ATRAC -> PCM -> ATRAC. Is that right?Look up SCMS on wikipedia when their servers stop reporting errors.That's Serial Copy Management System. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlok Posted January 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Thanks for wikipedia, i've never visited it before.But i meant that it is re-compressed, that is not good.Though i saw on wikipedia (or think that saw), that it doesn't produce any noticeable loss of quality, in contrary to conversion ATRAC->MP3.Really, doesn't matter anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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