Searching for MD player, need help.

[trevorkoch]

So this question has probably been answered about... 1,000 times already I'm sure. But because I'm a complete noob and know nothing about MD players, reading other topics somewhat similiar to my situation don't make too much sense. So...

My question is what md player would suit best for recording live rough demo tracks of my band? It's pretty heavy stuff and extremely loud. I'm pretty sure my budget reigns high enough to afford any portable hi-md recorder, so it shouldn't be a problem (400-500ish). I would also need a mic + any other accessory needed to make it work. My main concern is the sound quality, whether or not certain things like a loud bass would rattle the recording to nothing but a loud buzz. I'm not looking for something spectacular.. just a recording that is coherent enough to where all the instruments and vocals can relatively be heard and can be used to riff out ideas and write lyrics. If it can't be uploaded to a computer, I don't want it So that leaves only hi-md recorders ( I think those are the ones that are usb able if I retained anything reading this site ).

Thanks in advance, any suggestions are highly appreciated.

edit: If you could also reference some good places to purchase any of the suggested items I would appreciate that too!

Trevor

Edited October 22, 2006 by trevorkoch

[A440]

Yes, only Hi-MDs will upload, so there aren't that many choices.

With your budget, you might as well get the MZ-RH1, which has the most features and the easiest recording routine: Once you have set Manual Levels once, it retains them. No other MD does that. About $330 from www.soundprofessionals.com, www.minidisco.com and a zillion other places.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...oughType=search

Unless you have a mixer, where you could just send a headphone output into Line-in, you will want to record Mic-->Battery module-->Line-in.

The mic picks up the sound, and the battery module provides a little bit of power to the mic to open up its dynamic range and prevent it from overloading. Line-in needs a strong signal--loud music--and doesn't go through a preamp, so there's no preamp to overload.

For a battery module, I use this little thing:

http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmcbmminminc.htm

But you could use any battery module that provides 9V to the mic.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com has lots of mics, including many small ones made for stealthy use (which doesn't matter to you). You should look at the specs for frequency response (20-20,000 Hz is best) and for Maximum SPL (how loud the music can get before the mic itself overloads). Your mic must connect into a mini stereo jack, so its plug should look just like your earphone plug.

Think about how you are going to use the mic. Do you want one stereo mic you can place on a stand? A pair you can separate?

Two omnidirectional elements placed six inches apart will provide a stereo field like your ears. If the elements are closer--housed in one mic--you'll get less stereo separation, though that may not be important to you.

I'm very happy with the results I get with the extremely basic Sound Professionals BMC-2 through the Mic Madness battery module into Line-in, and I've been to some pretty loud shows. (You can listen to my recordings and other people's by clicking the (Live Recordings) link on the upper left.) That setup can handle anything short of actually feeling pain in your ears--though if your entire band is wearing earplugs during rehearsals and bashing away like Slayer, the bets are off.

Still, you may want to try bigger or more expensive mics, or less sensitive ones to deal with ultra-loud sound. Call up Sound Professionals or your local gear store and ask them for some advice. Sound Professionals, Microphone Madness and others have 30-day tryout periods, so you can experiment for the price of shipping.

In all fairness, minidisc now has competition for portable digital recording. There's the $399 Edirol R09, which is actually a bit more because you also need to buy a larger SD memory card than the one supplied. As compensation, it has built-in mics, though I have no idea whether loud music would overpower them. And minidisc has a feature I love: You can push a button on the unit or the remote, either while recording or (only on the unit) playing back, and place a silent, gapless track mark. Still, you might want to do some research elsewhere on the Edirol.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--EDIR09

[trevorkoch]

Cool, I'll have to check it out.

Yes, our practice space has a mixer from which the mic's run through and out to the pa... and... some of us wear earplugs haha. Plus since its a sort of enclosed area it makes it sound a lot louder than it actually may be.

So 1/8th mic, got it.

Also could you ... lol, ... link me to actual discs to be recorded on. Don't want to order anything and find out later it sucks or isn't compatable.

So here's what I'm looking at as of now.

MD recorder: MZ-RH1 Hi-MD Recorder http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...oughType=search

Microphones: SP-CMC-20's http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-CMC-20

Battery: slimline battery module 9v w/ bass roll off; http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/...?item=SP-SPSB-1

So.. what do you guys think? Any better suggestions for the money, or is this the cream of the crop? Also if theres a way I can skip the whole mic thing and somehow connect into the mixer to an XLR microphone that would be awesome too.

Edited October 23, 2006 by trevorkoch

[A440]

You can record on 74-minute, 80-minute (those were old-school minidiscs, holding 80 minutes of the old SP format) or 1GB discs. The Hi-MD blanks that were introduced with Hi-MD hold 1GB, which is 90 minutes of CD-quality PCM or nearly 8 hours (yes hours) of very good Hi-SP, or much longer and lower-quality Hi-LP, which you wouldn't want to use for live music.

The 74 and 80-minute discs hold slightly less than 1/3 as much. An 80-minute disc holds just under 2 1/2 hours of Hi-SP. You might as well get 80-minute discs rather than 74-minute discs if you're not using 1GB discs. I have had bad luck with Memorex and Hi-Space blanks--stick to Sony or TDK. And only Sony makes the 1GB discs, which are pretty addictive.

They're widely available--just punch "1GB Blank Hi-MD" into Google or Froogle. List price is $7 each--really not bad for 1GB of storage--so don't pay any more than that. You don't need many since you can keep reusing them: record, upload, erase, reuse. Supposedly a million rewrites are possible.

The mics you picked are cardioid, which means they are directional. If you want to shut out sound from behind the mics, they are useful for that. People sometimes use them for audience recordings to focus more on the sound in front of them. However, if your band is set up in a circle and you are recording from the middle, you definitely want omnis instead of cardioids.

Also, the frequency response on those cardioids is 50-20,000 Hz. As you probably know, each octave represents a doubling of frequency. The bottom key on a piano is 27 Hz. So a mic that only picks up above 50 Hz will miss the bottom octave on a piano, and any lower bass tones. Inexpensive cardioids usually have limited bass, so omni provides more bang for the buck.

Is your rehearsal room excessively boomy or bass-y? Otherwise, save some money and don't bother with bass roll-off. Bass roll-off was devised to compensate for the preamps in minidisc recorders, which overload easily if there is substantial bass. There's no bass problem recording through Line-in (and bypassing the preamp), and philosophically I don't like bass roll-off because the recording you get is inaccurate and the bass can't be restored later. Whereas if you do get an accurate but bass-heavy recording, you can always EQ it on playback.

A low-bass cardioid mic plus bass roll-off is going to give you tinny-sounding recordings.

If you can connect an output from the mixer to the 1/8 Line-in jack, you should be good to go. More here:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=7989

Question: Does everything go through the mixer? Drums, bass, guitars, keyboards, mixed the way you want to hear them? Because if only vocals are going out through the mixer to the PA, then that's all you'll get on the recording....

Edited October 23, 2006 by A440

[trevorkoch]

Ya the bass is really loud in our space. Not everything goes into the mixer although I could set it up for that and if I would that's what I meant.

I wouldn't mind using this for recording live shows and at the venues around here the bass is loud enough to make your eardrums rattle, so the roll-off wont go to waste.

Thanks for the mic suggestion I'm definately changing my choice now, looking at a 20hz omni atm. Although one question about the directional mic listed above. The space is a some what square enclosure with amps pointing all different directions, definately not aimed at a particular direction. But there is a hallway before entering the room that I guess you could place the mic and everything would be coming from one direction.. you think that would work? Just asking, probably a stupid question.

Thanks a lot man, you really have been more help than I would have thought to have received.

Edited October 23, 2006 by trevorkoch

[A440]

How does the music sound in that hallway to your ears? Balanced, muffled, echoey, clear?

My guess would be that music coming through a doorway into a hallway won't sound so great, but acoustics are a wacky thing. There's one club in New York City that for some reason gets a superb sound mix in the men's room--not that you would want to record from there.

If you do get bass roll-off, make sure you can switch it off, and try recording both with and without to see which sounds best to you.

[trevorkoch]

Ya I made sure the bass roll off wasnt something I couldnt turn off, its adjustable.

I went ahead and just replaced the cardioids with some well reviewed omnis. Im not too sure how it would of sounded... I probably could have gotten something decent after fashioning the amps in similar directions but it would of been a pain, taking away from the original "simplistic" purpose of getting a MD recorder to record in the first place. And yes... acoustics are indeed wacky. An old rehearsal space I use to play at with my father a few years ago got great sound mix in the adjacent guitar case closet... which was actually where they recorded some stuff with a cheap MD player which is where I got the idea in the first place.

I will be sure to post how it turns out and you will probably hear from me when I start trying to dial it in.

Edited October 24, 2006 by trevorkoch

[trevorkoch]

Heh should just ask this in advance,

but based on what I've listed do you have any suggestions as to settings so I can cut down on the tinkering time?

[A440]

It's going to depend on your mic and how loud the band is.

Mic-->Battery Module-->Line-in. Use Hi-SP at least, PCM for best quality.

You must use Manual Volume, which is under Rec Set. Auto Gain Control (AGC) will mangle the music. Start at 15/30 and look at the level meter--just make sure it never peaks right at the top.

It may seem obvious, but place the mics where the sound is best. If that means closing your eyes to listen in various places in the room, it's worth it.

[trevorkoch]

It's going to depend on your mic and how loud the band is.

Mic-->Battery Module-->Line-in. Use Hi-SP at least, PCM for best quality.

You must use Manual Volume, which is under Rec Set. Auto Gain Control (AGC) will mangle the music. Start at 15/30 and look at the level meter--just make sure it never peaks right at the top.

It may seem obvious, but place the mics where the sound is best. If that means closing your eyes to listen in various places in the room, it's worth it.

Ok I'll try it out. I think I know how I'll go about it too.

I'll post some up when we have some decent recordings. Thx a4

[trevorkoch]

just got my stuff, FINALLY.

First thing I did was record an acoustic elliot smith song.

Limited tinkering was done and I'm still learning, but oh my GOD this sounds so much better than I could have ever anticipated; I can not wait to get in the studio and recording some live band stuff.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SD6GYN1X

[greenmachine]

That is a beautiful recording, glad you're having success.