Mixing a matrix recording of audience and soundboard

[6079]

Is this very common and does it work very well?

As I understand it, the main drawback to recording directly from a soundboard is that the mix is not balanced to sound well on its own, only the room.

So to record both from the audience and the sound board, and then create a mix is an option. But I don't understand how that could possibly sound good, given that you are only mixing a partial source of the instruments; guitars, bass, usually.

Beyond that, is there a way for the mixer to still mix for a recording without messing up the room's levels?

And is it considerably better to have him mix in stereo than mono (I read they are most commonly mixed in mono).

What is the most tactful way to ask a soundboard guy to help you out with all of this?

Thanks for reading.

[Strungup]

Is this very common and does it work very well?

As I understand it, the main drawback to recording directly from a soundboard is that the mix is not balanced to sound well on its own, only the room.

So to record both from the audience and the sound board, and then create a mix is an option. But I don't understand how that could possibly sound good, given that you are only mixing a partial source of the instruments; guitars, bass, usually.

Beyond that, is there a way for the mixer to still mix for a recording without messing up the room's levels?

And is it considerably better to have him mix in stereo than mono (I read they are most commonly mixed in mono).

What is the most tactful way to ask a soundboard guy to help you out with all of this?

Thanks for reading.

Soundguy here , One way to do this , depending on your board ( you might need an extra small mixer for this ) If you have bussing on the mixer you can run an external set of mics placed strategicaly in the audience ( well above the audience actually) but not to far back from the stage , the reason you dont want it way back from the stage is a Time aligment issue. The signals from the mics will be late getting there in relation to the stage setup .

Omni mics , pointed just a little out from the stage ceiling , towards the audience and not directly above the speaker array . but well away from the Bass drivers.

Run to a small mixer dedicated to a recorder not fed to the Main sound , and also a bleed from the Main sound to that small mixer .

This way you get the individual instruments (If your any good at sound , getting the stage mixed properly , not using direct connects to the amps but micing the amps , and using a set of Redbox Speaker Emulators on the Keyboards to warm them , then that mix will sound pretty good to begin with )

Then bleeding in the Highs and mids from the speaker arrays , plus the Audience sounds from the two external mics , will give clarity that isnt Harsh or overly Direct sounding , Use a Dual channel Limiter on the small mixer effect buss , and you can get darn near a studio recording out of it .

At least that is how I do it .

Edited August 3, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[6079]

Soundguy here , One way to do this , depending on your board ( you might need an extra small mixer for this ) If you have bussing on the mixer you can run an external set of mics placed strategicaly in the audience ( well above the audience actually) but not to far back from the stage , the reason you dont want it way back from the stage is a Time aligment issue. The signals from the mics will be late getting there in relation to the stage setup .

Omni mics , pointed just a little out from the stage ceiling , towards the audience and not directly above the speaker array . but well away from the Bass drivers.

Run to a small mixer dedicated to a recorder not fed to the Main sound , and also a bleed from the Main sound to that small mixer .

This way you get the individual instruments (If your any good at sound , getting the stage mixed properly , not using direct connects to the amps but micing the amps , and using a set of Redbox Speaker Emulators on the Keyboards to warm them , then that mix will sound pretty good to begin with )

Then bleeding in the Highs and mids from the speaker arrays , plus the Audience sounds from the two external mics , will give clarity that isnt Harsh or overly Direct sounding , Use a Dual channel Limiter on the small mixer effect buss , and you can get darn near a studio recording out of it .

At least that is how I do it .

Sounds pretty good. Do you have any samples using this technique to check out?

[Strungup]

Sounds pretty good. Do you have any samples using this technique to check out?

none that I can post , bands are pretty sensitive about that , it copyrighted material .

Just have to visualise the room , how much of a stereo spread you will be able to synthysise will depend ,on the Sound Guy your working with , and his willingness to do things , and Your own audacity to do things without him knowing what your doing if he isnt a cooperative type . I like recording so I usually setup for that purpose ,

Basically three types of live sound,

Mono Mixed , Sub Synthysis = LOUD , Smaller venues , so that everyone gets the same thing

Stereo/Mono Mixed, Biamped , dual Board setups = Larger venues , Where the front part of the crowd gets hit with a Full mono(Exept guitars and keys) Blast in the face , but farther back as you go some Dual Phased Mono element gets in giving the Image of Stereo ( It isnt a true stereo , but it is good)

Stereo / Mono Dual = Production Sound , For Live recording ,DVD Concert filming , etc = Two seperate mixing stations with bleeds off of each other for the final mix to the recording console

Edited August 3, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[Seekerr]

As another sound guy, I can attest that guitarfx knows what he's talking about. Often, a clean SBD sounds pretty bad, because a surprising amount of the tone is imparted by the speakers and room. Unless the guitars and keys are being run through AT LEAST an EQ to warmify, and preferably an amp modeller, or best a real amp and a good microphone, what goes through the board is going to sound...ordinary, at best.

OK, so far as matrixing goes - only really works with smaller venues, for starters. Basically, you're trying to get the tone-perfection of the SBD in with the warmness and atmosphere of the AUD. Also, if the drumkit has been mic'd, this can get you a very nice clean drum feed, so you can EQ the boominess of the AUD away without losing anything.

As guitarfx suggests, the best matrix's are often those that are mixed on the board itself from intentionally placed microphones - a lot of higher end soundboards have matrix (same word, slightly different meaning in this context) features designed for tailoring individual mixes to monitor speakers/ in ear monitors, and it's no big deal to use one of those stereo matrix output pairs as a separate recording output.

The other thing to consider with matrix mixes is the delay between what goes through the board and what makes it out the speakers and then through the air back to your microphones. This means that recordings, even those made from a common source, will hafta be resynced unless your audience source/s are very close to the stage.

So, much the same word as guitarfx - it CAN sound good. No, it's not easy. It's certainly my favourite type of recording to listen to, though, when done well. Do a bit of poking about on the etree archives over at archive.org, have a listen to any matrix mixes you can find.

BTW, on the stereo issue...don't stress it. Stereo is nice, and it can rescue an AUD recording by providing some directionality that helps your brain filter out the crud. But there's no harm with mixing a mono SBD with a stereo AUD. I personally mix my board in a gentle stereo, panning instruments appropriately to fake stereo seperation, and spreading the drums around to give that "in the throne" sound...not as pro as doing separate channel mixes with crossover "bleed feeds", but I'm not in that league personally. So you might get lucky, and be able to take a stereo feed straight out...quite often it depends on how many amplifiers your sound guy brought with him as to how he runs it.

Oh, and one last point on approaching the sound guy - just ask for help. Do not, under any circumstances, offer advice, just tell him what you'd like to achieve. Quite likely, if he wasn't trying to set up a recording himself that he was already stressing over, you'll get a "No worries, here, plug this into your recorder, I'll deal with the rest". We kinda hate other people telling us what to do. Particularly if it's the band! Or at least, I do.

[Strungup]

I dont mind if a band actually knows what they are after , it's the wannabee's that get on my nerves. If there is some actual understanding of acoustics , then there is a discussion , provided there is time of course .

stage6.com has a concert by a group called "Dreams Come True" ripped from a dvd , download it and listen to that mix , Three seperate systems plus a dedicated Stage monitoring setup , very nicely mixed. Audience Blends nice , Band is smooth and tight , Levels are very well balanced.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Guitarfxr

[6079]

Thanks, guys. As always, I get a wealth of information to chew on from my initial newbie questions.

[Seekerr]

Oh, a band that really knows what they want is fine. It's just the ones who spend half an hour trying to tell me that my monitor speakers are "too small" and have blown their cones (it was a faulty amplifier supplied by the venue, and the band was an Irish folk band...if they'd blown a pair of JBL M-Pro's, I'd be mighty surprised) instead of letting me fix the problem.

Anyhows, ontopic - experiment and enjoy, tutorials can be found on the topic (try over at tapers section) if you need any help getting started.

[andsaviorself]

I recorded off of a soundboard for the first time last night and beforehand read how many people mix both the soundboard and mics. but when I plugged them both in, my MD would either just say "mic recording" or "line recording" which led me to believe I'd only be able to record from one source.

how do you make this work?

[Strungup]

I recorded off of a soundboard for the first time last night and beforehand read how many people mix both the soundboard and mics. but when I plugged them both in, my MD would either just say "mic recording" or "line recording" which led me to believe I'd only be able to record from one source.

how do you make this work?

You can only use one input on the recorder , from a mixer you use the Line input , You use a small mixer to bleed stereo mixes and mono mixes from the other setups , the small mixer is to control JUST the sound going to the recorder , and a pair of headphones

[andsaviorself]

I'm already a bit confused. are you saying that I also have to buy my own mini mixer? if that's the case, I'll just stick to one or the other. I've already spent to much money on all of this stuff.

:/

[Seekerr]

Yes, you would need a minimixer of your own....Behringer have one that's only about $40 (Australian, probably less wherever you happen to be), takes 4 inputs. Not a bad way to start if you find yourself interested again.

[andsaviorself]

hm, that's not that bad. is it worth it though? because I know I'll have this problem at the venue again

btw, can you perhaps show me a link of what you're talking about?

[Strungup]

hm, that's not that bad. is it worth it though? because I know I'll have this problem at the venue again

btw, can you perhaps show me a link of what you're talking about?

The Berhingher UB series "UB502" is the smallest fuctional mixer , And they are cheap usefull great for podcasts and just to have around , the only thing about the 502 I dont like is it isnt battery powered .

Just recently they have started up with the Portable mixer again and several companies have them .

here is a link to a company I have done a LOT of busines with , and s direct link to the Battery powered mixer section , browse theor whole site though , including B Stock , Discontinued, Returns ,Refurbs , you can end up with a Much better deal and something that will really suit your needs ( and a few extra needs that you dont know about yet !) I like Battery powered if its good quality , read the specs S/N Ratios ,IEN's ) Input . Equivalent. Noise.)

Fullcompass has a lot of cool stuff , but will also GET what they dont have for you . good service .Fast delivery .

http://www.fullcompass.com/category/Mixers...DC-powered.html

A personal recommendation for a small Mixer is this one , It is Tapco ( Mackie) you cant go wrong with this one , Two mic ins , and two stereo ins with effect loops)

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/324913.html 59.99

Edited August 4, 2007 by Guitarfxr