HE-AAC Vs ATRAC

[DannyB37]

Whats the differences in battery consumption and quality between the 2?

lol, I'm just installing SSCP4.2 and was thinking if via firmware updates they allowed HE-AAC on Sony devise (Hopefully with iTunes supported tags - iTunes can play those files right? No?) lol

But what are the differences? lol (I started to drift)

Edited November 11, 2006 by DannyB37

[Guest Stuge]

As far as battery life is concerned ,we can't tell anything right now b'coz HE-AAC is not compatible .

[pata2001]

iTunes does NOT support HE-AAC. It only plays HE-AAC files with half the bandwidth and no SBR, just like non-MP3pro players play MP3pro files. Also, I don't think itunes support .3gp extension anyway. I wish Sony use MP4 container, which is supported more broadly (Nero, PSP). 3gp seems to be only supported in cellphones.

At low bitrates, HE-AAC is definitely better than Atrac3+. He-AAC at 48kbps is still listenable, while Atrac3+ at 48kbps is just awful.

[DannyB37]

thanks!

Does anyone know why sony uses none-iTunes supported tags?

Its really annoying!

[pata2001]

It's Sony, what do you expect? Apple is not quilty-free either. iTunes have tags that are not compatible with other software. Even iTunes have compatibility problems importing Nero encoded AAC due to incompatible tags.

[DannyB37]

Isn't there a tagging standard then?

[pata2001]

I assume there is, but Sony seems to approach AAC from the mobile phone extension, which is I think why they use 3gp extension, instead of the more standard MP4. I don't know about the details, but there might be differences between those 2 approaches in tems of standard tagging and such. Or Sony could just pull another propietary stunt just as usual.

[grenert]

Isn't there a tagging standard then?

I don't think there is a "standard" tagging system for AAC. If there is, then almost nobody uses it, because you hear about various incompatibilities between the tags made by Nero and those made by iTunes. Personally, I've had very good luck tagging AAC files with Tag and Rename, but I don't think that program works with .3gp files.

[JustAnUnCoolCat]

Can't blame anyone wanting to take advantage of HE-AAC especially for generating really compact audio files - if the A3000 supported low bitrate HE-AAC i'd use it instead of 48 & 64K ATRAC3Plus any day.

Using Q .35 (approx 100kps VBR) AAC-HE files with my NAS & Streaming Audio standable receiver/media player these days, and for sure, there's definately a lot of the stuff that would translate to 48K & 64K HE-AAC equivs nicely (on the SQ and compact accounts). My most listened to radio station (internet only) uses low-mid rate VBR HE-AAC and it sounds nice regardless of what i listen via, cans or the hifi.

Sure was an opportunity missed there by Sony with their more quality audio products, but they didn't miss it on some of their 'toy' audio products.. such as phones with media players..

Then again, they also did likewise with ATRAC3Plus, and DVD Players - if they had such overwhelming confidence in the ATRAC3Plus codec and the low end of the encoding rates, why didn't they add the support to their later DVD units and the integrated audio player mode..??

Well, i guess history proves itself reliable, that Sony never seem to do what's blindingly obvious...

Ok they fixed some issues on SonicStage, and god knows they could choke to death on the written and unwritten comments and complaints of SS (which is, as most would admit, way overdue for replacement.. or rebuilding from the ground up). But that's another example of how the philosophy at Sony works, it's way too obvious to consider...

Oh well, i guess it's a damn miracle they bothered to even release AAC supporting firmware, let alone the tool that could manage the transfers of AAC to supporting devices. I can see so vividly, an alternative parallel scenario where they add support to firmware, but give no means to transfer AAC to the devices...

Frightening thought, but that's corporate philosophy for you.. best never entered into on a bad day

'Tom Kat'

[ceres]

Hi Tom Kat,

AAC is a very logical step considering S efforts in the PS3 Video Arena. PS3 MUST be able to support AAC. The same holds true for mobile phones as aac audio is part of the 3g partnership along with h263/64 video standard. So it´s only "natural" to streamline codec support across the entire portfolio. In due time Atrac will be relegated to legacy support status. I am sure of that. Anyway, the ongoing pimping of Atrac in SS and various manuals is starting to get embarrassing.

ATRAC is terminally sick as is Sonic Stage. Sony Divisions have not been closely integrated in the past which also -in part- may explain why Atrac did not receive more coverage when it was competitive. HE-AAC needs to be supported by dedicated silicon to be battery efficient.

[JustAnUnCoolCat]

Hi Ceres ..

For sure, it would indeed be a logical step. No arguments from me in that department.

But as history is proving as it's written/recorded/rememebered, 'logical' never seems to figure into the overall Sony philosophy. In that respect, the corp are almost mirroring teenagers and the teenager 'iPod is the cool only choice' irrational non-thinking with the dogged devotion to ATRAC as their primary focus.

No way would i back any pressure group movement to force Sony to scrap ATRAC mind, the horrors of the Ogg Vorbis hollering at iRiver/Reigncom and the irrationality that went with the screaming is something i never want to envision being repeated over ATRAC and it's demise in favour of something else.

But i'd support any rational move to look at the best of what exists universally in the existing products, and ensures that core support of what legacy users need as well as the best integration of more flexible codec support is also nicely surgically put into the support mix.

Definately, low-bit-rate AAC-HE would be the non open-source choice of low-rate codec support to supercede 48/64K ATRAC3Plus. Ogg Vorbis would be the open source counterpart - but if the move went in that direction, you can bet that as sure as bears crap in the woods, that the extremist part of the advocates of open-source codecs would kick up hell as usual, so Ogg Vorbis would also have to considered too to keep that lot quiet.

Of course, no matter what is potentially up for grabs, adoption wise, noone will settle for a part-adoption, because these days those with the loudest voices and the ability to create the virtiual wagon train of bandwagon jumpers, simply wont settle for anything less than perfect (aka their preferred clean-build open license code choice with total past/present/future/infinate support scope).

Which is kinda remarkable given the fact that the majority of users of the products, simply get on with using the damn things... not obsessing over the purity and perfection of what code is used to get the support in the device.

I would happily agree with any rational moves, provided choice remained in the outcome of a rational move on on the part of Sony/Awia.

But i aint holding my breath on that one.

And yes, i would agree that a battery efficient implement of codec support (any codec support, in my way of thinking) is a must.

After all, the improvement curve of practical battery technology performance improvements is a shallow one, so where we aint really gonna see massive improvements in battery capacity and power output potential and i pretty much feel that (for the most part) that power consumption on the hardware side is not gonna improve in leaps and bounds yet a while (again talking practical, not lab-rat technologies), then it's gotta be down to getting efficiency in discrete terms (such as more efficient codecs, more efficient handling etc, more efficient code overall) that's our only real hope of battery-efficient improvements.

Ok, Sony did pull a bit of a rabbit out of the hat with the VME approach which kinda caught attention notably with the first gen of ATRAC CD Walkmans. That was one of the clever approachs to some kind of efficiency move, since it did indeed deliver results. In fact, I experienced 'beating the specs' battery endurance on the D-NE1, the D-NE20 never seemed to quite hit the same OTTness of battery efficiency... but that was a single battery deck vs the D-NE1's twin battery source.

If they could learn from that VME sucess, and apply it to whatever is the equiv to VME these days and make it work for an integrated batch of codec support that reflects the future/recent present such as AAC support, then that would be a parallel step in the right direction along with more intelligent and rational mix of codec support.

But we come back to the thick-skinned barrier that seems to keep the corporate philosophy operating in a reality the rest of us dont live in.

Seen that too many times working in broadcasting and working in the DAP industry, so am amazed on one paw that Sony still survive the way they do... and on the other paw, i know that it's not unlike the broadcasting world where adoption of new and existing logical progressions are a bit like childbirth... long, slow and painful..., and with (referring to the corporate philosophy and attitude) and totally unforgiving and inward thinking mother bearing the new born.

It's no fun being the 'nice guy' when you gotta keep one paw in the corporate philosophy and one paw in the side that's arguing for rational thinking. It just takes years off your life in terms of stress related damage.

Hopefully sense will prevail on many accounts.

'Tom Kat'