Need advice and help doing some digital recording.

[thinkmd]

Hi.

I'm trying to do some on-site digital recording. I'll be starting with some friends playing guitar and possibly singing. (I've already gotten a Dean Markley humbucker pickup and have done a test recording. It sounds "okay.")

I purchased a Sony NetMD MZ-N707 (it has a MIC. input) at a good price, thinking that I'd be able to digitally transfer my audio from the MD to the PC. After scanning many websites and FAQ's, it appears that a digital transfer is NOT possible, or certainly not anywhere near as easy as I had first anticipated. I'm still within the grace period for getting my money back on the N707.

It looks to me that I need to get a MiniDisc deck with a digital (preferrably optical) output jack, to be able to digitally transfer audio from MD to PC.

But, now I'm seriously doubting that this approach really makes sense. That is, I don't think I should I be spending more money on a MD deck, if, for the same amount of money, I could get a portable or reasonably portable CD recorder? It doesn't bother me too much to carry around a few pieces of gear (CD recorder, preamp, cables, etc.)--I'm more concerned about dumping too much money into something that I already know will sound like "ATRAC," especially if there is a higher-quality way to go. Know what I mean?

I am making phone calls today to see whom in my area has some of the gear that I'm looking for, but since I don't know have lots of experience with what gear is good, I would be MOST appreciative if someone (anyone!) could please provide some feedback on any or all of these questions:

1. Who makes a good portable CD recorder? (If you know them, please provide model numbers.)

2. Who makes a good CD recorder deck (like you would put in your entertainment center, along with your TV, stereo, etc.)?

3. What portable CD recorder or CD recorder deck would have a MIC. input? Do any have a MIC. input or do they all have LINE in's?

4. What CD recorders (portable and deck) have digital in's?

5. What CD recorders (portable and deck) have digital out's? (Please distinguish between optical and Coaxial, if you know.)

6. Incidentally, I'm not into MP3's. Would .wav files be the way to save my audio? Is there a better, higher-quality file format?

If you do respond to this posting, please indicate if you've used such-and-such a piece of gear. (Thanks.)

Please keep in mind that I don't mind carrying around a CD recorder deck. My first choice, however, would be a smaller, portable CD recorder, preferrably set up with MIC. and/or LINE in's.

Thanks VERY much in advance!! (I posted this to a few forums here only for the sake of getting more users to read this.)

[Guest Anonymous]

Some random feedback:

Don't bother frettin' 'bout your tracking (recording) gear if you've already choked off the signal chain from your (presumably) acoustic guitar with a pickup -- get that guitared mic'd -- look at Octava or many others for inexpensive condensors.

Most prosumer and pro-audio tracking has migrated to harddisk using dedicated units or laptops/computers with outboard A/D converters via USB or Firewire interfaces. Hardware in this camp will be much more flexible as to dialing up or down desired tracking quality vs CD or MD tracking gear. You will also spend much more time and money in putting together your HD-based system.

Absent HD-based recording, nothing beats the convenience, ease, portability and flexibility of an MD recorder. While the debate still simmers on in some quarters, given true "apples-to-apples" comparison settings, only a tiny minority of "golden eared" types can tell the difference between PCM 44.1 KHz 16-bit ("CD") signals and the latest gen ATRAC signals. And among those that can, some even prefer ATRAC ("MD") under certain conditions.

I would characterize CD-based recorders as much more 'rigid' than MD-based recorders -- there are major technical differences between the two formats, and the design goals were far different. The MD format was created by Sony to replace the ubiquitous but long-in-the-tooth audio cassette recorder. The CD and early CD players were created to replace vinyl records -- a form of cheap mass distributed pre-recorded audio. Bottom line: a CD recorder will not buy you any appreciably better 1st-gen recording, but it will force you into much bigger and less flexible gear and recording scenarios.

If you can, wait until Sony starts shipping the next-gen Hi-MD gear in April. Then you can do digital transfers from a portable unit to your PC for post work.

If you are looking for a pro-quality all-in-one field recorder/pre-amp/balanaced XLR input with flexible digital I/O, look at the HHB MDP500 portable minidisc recorder (http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/usa/hhbproducts/portadisc/index.asp). May seem pricey at first. But go out and price the components separately and it stacks up pretty well in one convient and portable package.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks to all who read this lengthy post.

>>Some random feedback:

Don't bother frettin' 'bout your tracking (recording) gear if you've already choked off the signal chain from your (presumably) acoustic guitar with a pickup -- get that guitared mic'd -- look at Octava or many others for inexpensive condensors.<<

Thanks very much, warfen, for the feedback. If I feel physically better (I've had a cold that has wiped me out), I will likely be going to a couple of guitar/music stores tomorrow to look at some more gear. I'll look into Octava (thanks to your comment) and probably SM57's.

Unfortunately, I'm under a time crunch and I cannot wait until April. And, I don't have lots of money to throw at this.

I decided to try the guitar pickup route because I cannot guarantee that the environment where I *must* do the recording will be quiet enough to allow me to use a microphone. (But, it's still not out of the question to use a microphone.)

Anyone else care to comment on microphone versus guitar pickup? What's a good pre-amp to use? I would appreciate knowing what other folks find is good quality.

>>Most prosumer and pro-audio tracking has migrated to harddisk using dedicated units or laptops/computers with outboard A/D converters via USB or Firewire interfaces. Hardware in this camp will be much more flexible as to dialing up or down desired tracking quality vs CD or MD tracking gear. You will also spend much more time and money in putting together your HD-based system.<<

I'm confused about what you're saying here. It sounds like, on the one hand, you're saying that a PC-based multitracker is the way to go (as far as flexibility goes), but, on the other hand, it sounds like you're saying that I'll end up spending more money doing it this way? I can't afford to build up a laptop-based system. I am considering, however, something like a Fostex MR-8.

>>Absent HD-based recording, nothing beats the convenience, ease, portability and flexibility of an MD recorder. While the debate still simmers on in some quarters, given true "apples-to-apples" comparison settings, only a tiny minority of "golden eared" types can tell the difference between PCM 44.1 KHz 16-bit ("CD") signals and the latest gen ATRAC signals. And among those that can, some even prefer ATRAC ("MD") under certain conditions.<<

Quality aside, I'm still going to need some way to digitally get my audio from the "field" MD to my PC. Which, to date, about the only possible solution for that that I can see is to get an MD deck, unless I start looking into the expensive prosumer- and pro- level equipment. (And, even with the MD deck approach, I don't know if I'm going to run into any SCMS difficulties.)

In my original post, when I said CD recorder, I meant *just* a recorder--nothing fancy. (My apologies for not making that clear.) I can get my hands on a Teac RWH300 standalone CD recorder for a good price. In fact, I'll end up spending less money doing that than I would keeping the portable MD & getting an MD deck. What I'll end up with is a CD recorder that'll give me a field-burned CD that I'll theoretically be able to pop into my PC; that's "instant" digital transfer, no cables necessary. This particular unit also has optical in's and out's (I believe digital-coaxial also), should I decide to transfer the audio via cables.

>>I would characterize CD-based recorders as much more 'rigid' than MD-based recorders -- there are major technical differences between the two formats, and the design goals were far different. The MD format was created by Sony to replace the ubiquitous but long-in-the-tooth audio cassette recorder. The CD and early CD players were created to replace vinyl records -- a form of cheap mass distributed pre-recorded audio. Bottom line: a CD recorder will not buy you any appreciably better 1st-gen recording, but it will force you into much bigger and less flexible gear and recording scenarios.<<

Yes, I get the feeling that CD recorders are less flexible in certain ways. (But, again, I'm assuming that you're talking more about a much higher-end CD-based multitracker than I can afford.) However, being able to digitally transfer the audio is one of the main goals that I'm trying to accomplish. Theoretically, I can remix/play with the audio on my PC anyway and, using my PC's CD burner, burn the final mix there, if I choose to. Also, to start with, I'll likely just have two audio sources, at most--someone singing and someone strumming a guitar. I should mention that I don't intend to make this a big-time-production thing. I'm only getting started; I'll be recording one or two family members. It's not like I intend to make money on this.

>>If you can, wait until Sony starts shipping the next-gen Hi-MD gear in April. Then you can do digital transfers from a portable unit to your PC for post work.<<

I cannot wait until April, for a number of reaons not related to money spent, quality issues, number of pieces of gear, etc. Besides that, "I'll believe it when I see it." (No offense, warfen.) I've been keeping an eye on the discussion about digital MD-->PC transfers with the Hi-MD gear. Some folks are still saying digital MD-->PC transfers won't happen. (Anyone who's reading this, please don't quote me that it won't be happen. That's *not* what I'm saying.) I got burned the first time around, thinking that a digital MD-->PC transfer was going to be easy. If anything, I want to get away from what seems to be largely Sony's restrictions.

>>If you are looking for a pro-quality all-in-one field recorder/pre-amp/balanaced XLR input with flexible digital I/O, look at the HHB MDP500 portable minidisc recorder (http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/usa/hhbproducts/portadisc/index.asp). May seem pricey at first. But go out and price the components separately and it stacks up pretty well in one convient and portable package.<<

One place that I checked the price on the HHB MDP500 said $1400.00. There's no way that I can afford that right now. I'm just getting started.

I'm something of a newbie. I do need to answer, for sure, this question: if I get a digital multitracker (like the Fostex MR-8, some kind of Boss or Korg "portable studio", etc.), would I be able to record the guitar track on-site, then, play it back on-site for a singer and record the singer? That is, can I play back the guitar track AND record the vocal track simultaneously?

Thanks, warfen. I really do appreciate you taking the time to read this and respond. Ultimately, this will help me make a good decision.

Thanks also, to anyone else who's reading this. I appreciate all that I can learn. If you're considering posting a reply, please don't feel you have to make it lengthy. Quick comments are DEFINITELY appreciated!!!!