live recording tips and tricks

[darwin]

hi..

id like to start a discussion on live recording tips... i know that a lot of getting a good recording is based on knowing your equipment..most of the live recording i will be doing will have to be real low key.. .and learning the lessons from the previous attempts.. id like to pool our knowlege.. learn from your mistakes, you learn from mine..

i just got a Sharp MD-DR7 Auvi 1-Bit MiniDisc Recorder and a Sony ECM-MS907 microphone. i have now attempted to record two live shows..

getting into the club...

i have found that bringing the mini disc player into the events hasn't been a problem.. after reading a few reccomendations here.. at first i put everything in the bag that came with the microphone, and tried stuffing it down my pants..i put the spare blank discs in my wallet .but one time there was metal detectors, and the next time there was security guards patting people down. i took the whole package out of my pants..got some interesting looks while doing that in front of the club. what i wound up doing is putting the package under my wallet in my hand..when they searched me i just showed it to them like its my wallet.. nobody even wanted to look inside the bag...i bring my digital camera too to use as a decoy (it is also nice to document the shows that you are recording).. i figure if they trip out on the minidisc player it is a recorder for my camera which allows me to download the photos right away so i can make room to take more photos of the event. not sure about what to say about the mic but it hasnt come up yet...

how do you get inside? any fool proof methods?

once inside the club...

i try to go to the bathroom or a dark corner and get all my gear set up...i put the mini disc player in my left pants pocket.. clip the remote to the inside of my jacket.. i put the mic thru my the sleeve of my jacket so the cable is hidden as well...(not sure this is a good idea yet)

ok so here is where my questions start...

how do you monitor your recordings? in a dark club it is hard to see the lcd screen, and with loud speakers it is not easy to stay low key and listen to the recording at the same time..its impossible to tell if you are hearing the headphones or the speakers in the room..i would really like to be able to check the levels of the recording at intervals during the night..any tips?

last recording my mic came unplugged from the mini disc as well. damn i was so bummed.. of course i didnt know and stood there the whole set with the mic in my hand.. anyone have any tips on making securing your mic so it cant be pulled out during the recording?

the last recording i tried to hold the mic right at my waist level..made it easy because i looked like i was just standing with my hands in my pockets..unfortunately since the mic came unplugged i couldnt see how the quality was..anyone have any recomendations of how and where to hold the mic?

i have only tried this two times so far, so i know i have not come across all the problems and mistakes that are possible during live recording..id appreciate any tips through out the entire process..

thanks for everything.. :grin:

respect.

darwin

[Ferenc]

how do you monitor your recordings?  in a dark club it is hard to see the lcd screen, and with loud speakers it is not easy to stay low key and listen to the recording at the same time..its impossible to tell if you are hearing the headphones or the speakers in the room..i would really like to be able to check the levels of the recording at intervals during the night..any tips?

What I say here most people will consider heresy. Use automatic level control. I made several recordings of rock and jazz concerts with my Sony MZ-R900, SP-CMC-4 cardiod or omni mics and home-made battery box, all with automatic level control (ALC). I rarely observed any artefacts due to ALC, and they could be corrected with ease during mastering.

(I did have however problems when recorded classical concerts using mic input and ALC, loud passages (especially choirs) show terrible level variations which are difficult or impossible to correct!)

I would also like to add that your Sony ECM-MS907 mic is not really suitable for stealth recordings. If you want to make it seriously, invest in a Sound Professionals (or Core Sound or other, I don't want to make an advertisement here) mics specially developed for live recordings. The best way to conceal the mics is to develop long hair and attach the mics to your eyeglass frames. :wink:

[A440]

Here's another vote for automatic level control. Recording studio engineers may have the luxury of manual level control, but if you're in a dark club where you're not supposed to be recording at all, and you're trying to enjoy the concert, just set it and let it roll.

I've only had problems with it when the bass is really booming, and if that's the situation, then set it manually to something reasonable and leave it alone. Rock concerts don't have the loud-and-soft contrasts of classical shows anyway, which is what you would need manual for.

And definitely get smaller mics that you can clip to a shirt collar, eyeglasses or hat. The noise you get from moving the mic around probably outweighs any advantage in fidelity. Basic pencil-eraser-sized binauarals from Sound Professionals or Microphone Madness or Core Sounds will give you superb recordings.

[YJ2K]

To start, how I sneak my rig in is in a fanny pack down the front of the pants. Hasn't failed yet. As for recording and checking levels, I run the mics (SP-CMC-4 cardioid) up my shirt and have them in my hat to get them up high and out of the way. I get my levels set early on, and lock the MD. I also have a booster wth a level control knob so if I need to adjust on the fly, I can. I keep the booster and the MD in my fanny pack up front and I keep a mini key chain flashlight so I can cup my hand and check the levels and timer on the LCD. I haven't had any problems yet. Well, aside from the MD running out and not writing a TOC. But that's another thread!

[A440]

I don't wear hats, and after some experimentation I've settled on clipping little binaural mics to each side of my shirt collar. Dark shirt, obviously. You can turn your head without affecting the mics. The cord goes down my shirt and out to where the MD is in a (camera) case on my belt--easy to reach down and hit the track mark button between songs.

Club bouncers mostly care about weapons, cameras and booze. Most of them aren't going to know what an MD recorder is. If they find it in a search, you can pull it out of your pocket and show it to them and tell them it's an MP3 player or a pager. Or as I've mentioned elsewhere, get a case that's big enough to tuck the MD under a pair of binoculars and put it on your belt. When they look at it, open it up and show the binocs, and you're in.

I was at a coliseum show recently next to two ushers and was taking out my MZ-R700 between songs to make track marks. They looked right at it and didn't know or care what it was.

[chenners]

fortunately for me, the venues i've been going to don't have that strict a security check. i basically put my md into the black little case that i got with it and put it in the zippered compartment of my purse. the bouncers aren't that thorough with their searches anyhow. besides, i distract them...

in terms of setting up, i head to the ladies room (with the assumption that gals take up more time in there) and get everything set up (namely to remove the md from its case so i can check on the recording progress. i do the prep--blank disc, battery charged--before leaving home). i took the headphones the first couple of times of recording, just so in between sets i could listen and see that YES, i was getting everything recorded. but that became a hassle.

now i situate the md in my bag so that i have relative easy access to check that the minutes are clicking off on the md (i guess NOT having a lcd light in this case helps in being covert). if people become overly curious, i pull out my cell phone and pretend that i'm checking messages.

the only major issue i'm having is the microphone. the one i've got (sony ecm 719) isn't inconspicious. i've had it clipped to the strap/handle of my bag and used my arm in trying to cover the thing, which means adding more noise to the recordings (that mic picks up everything!) so i'm thinking next stop is a smaller mic.

now my question is this: do you find yourself having to monitor your reactions (laughter, cheers, applause) while recording just so that your voice doesn't get recorded? and how difficult is that for you to do?

[A440]

Being a guy, the purse gambit isn't really going to work for me. Sometime I do carry a little canvas camera bag with the MD in it if not the camera case on the belt.

But you should definitely get yourself some smaller mics. It's not that big an investment for basic binaurals, the size of pencil erasers, and you can clip 'em on--maybe even to your purse strap--and forget about them. Better stereo spread, too.

As for reactions, yeah, I do try to keep quiet during shows--not singing along, not yelling, waiting till the song is over before applauding--but I pretty much did that before MD. Laughs or a few words are no big deal, but usually the band sings better than I do, and conversation can wait until after the set unless the club is on fire. If I do talk, I try to do it during the applause so I can edit it out. There's plenty of time to talk during intermission or after the gig.

It always baffled me that people would pay big money for Radiohead tickets and then spend the entire show shouting over the music about what's going on at their office. And I've seen it happen....

[chenners]

heh, that's true. but then there ARE other female md users, no?

i think it's interesting how there are gender differences in getting the md into the venue but that one way or another, enterprising souls find a way!

also: from what i've been reading, i'm getting the impression that security checks for males are more stringent than they are for females. so guys? there's always the option to ask a gal to carry your md for you. but then, that would depend on how comfortable you'd feel having someone else temporarily in control of a very valuable electronic device! (c'mon, we've got compartments for our compartments in our bags...)

just my 2 cents...

:grin:

[Ferenc]

I would like to warn those who use Sony MZ-R900, but this might be applied for other models as well.

The "hold" switch on the back and the "rec mode" button could be very easily switched or pressed accidentally. It happened to me just the other day that I accidentally recorded a show in LP4 mode because of this . (In the past it happened also once that the hold switch get slided but I noticed it and could interact immediately.) I cannot reproduce how it could happen but to prevent such failures in the future, I have placed a tape over the hold switch and a washer+tape over the rec mode button.

Learn from my failure.

[Linda]

Ferenc, same thing happened to me with the HOLD button. I was so excited to record, and then -- nothing!

I made the biggest beginner mistakes. Bought my mini-disk recorder the day before I flew to Austin for the SXSW in Austin. I had a big fat mic, and it was hard to conceal. But it picked up everything so well. Unfortunately, it picked up me and my friends, too. So I have to get a small mic too. What about the ear-phone mics, are they good? Stealth mics? I like the one on the eye-glasses. I'm gonna try that. I brought mine in in my pants. I had heard in advance that they really search people going in. So, I stuffed everything in my jeans and it was pretty uncomfortable. i am going to try the fanny pack inside my jeans; that sounds great. At one venue in Austin, they separated men from women. They looked in my bag, but that was it. Then I made off to the woman's room, and got set up.

By the third night, I was marking tracks, not talking, clapping only between songs. I missed some good music, but I am ready for next time.

i have to find the thread about how to get the music from the disc to to a cd now..

[lforman]

I have horrible results with the plackback volume of my recordings in L4 and quality, so I thinking of recording in L2. What do most people use for live shows?

Also, I'm going to buy a smaller mic and have considered cardiods, but since many of the events I record are not alwasy only straight in front of me, (sometimes some of the instruments are behind as well as in front of the mics) , I am thinking of biaural, even though I'll pick up more audience noise with biaurals.

Also, I'm short (5 2'') and was wonderning whether I should stand back from the stage when I record or get close. What do you all think.

Lisa

Sharp DR80

[A440]

LP4 is no good for music.

I record most shows in LP2 because it eliminates the need to change MDs partway through. There's a small increment in quality with SP, but not that great, and for me it's outweighed by not losing a song when you switch (or losing a bunch of them when you forget to keep an eye on the time).

You should start with a basic pair of binaurals, especially if you're recording in small places or with the music surrounding you. Cardioids are more for big theaters or arenas where you're in the middle of a big crowd and you need to aim them.

You're going to get some audience noise because audiences are noisy, but with any luck the music will drown it out. Cardoids will also pick up audience noise in front of you anyway, though less to the sides and back.

You should stand wherever it sounds best to your ears, and try to put the binaurals as close to your ears as possible--on glasses, or a hat, or who knows, on little barrettes (but don't let your hair brush against them). The higher they are the better, because the people around you aren't just blocking your view--they're muffling the sound, too.

Listen objectively. Often the clearest sound is not up close at center stage, where you'd want to be to see the show; the PA is pointed further out to reach most of the crowd. Sometimes the best sound is by the sound booth, which is where the guy mixing it hears it. Old hands at concert recording often advise to point the mics not at the stage but at the speaker columns, which often give you a clearer mix.

But if it sounds good to you and you have decent mics, the recording should sound good too.

[BJ]

I've been using these mics for a couple years and haven't had any problems with sound quality...but then, I've nothing to compare them to, as I haven't used anything else. My brother and I both recorded the same show, me on the homebrew mics and him on a Sony cardioid (sorry, don't know the model number) and while there was a difference in sound quality, it wasn't very drastic at all (both on LP2, btw).

I use as many tricks as possible to get my machine in. I have a pair of Hanes briefs that I sewed a pocket into. That carries the MD unit, and I stash blanks in my wallet, boot (inside the sock in case they ask me to remove my footwear), pocket, etc so I know I'll have one if a couple are taken away (haven't had any confiscated yet, though). The homebrew binaurals are tiny enough to stash anywhere and look like a pair of earbuds. I wear a large belt buckle (for metal detectors) and a bum bag containing earplugs, the concert tickets, band-aids and other junk.

Once inside, I hit the restroom and gear up.

I usually wear a flannel shirt with a breast pocket to stash my MZ-R900. Last time I tried wearing a baseball cap; I sewed the soft part of two Velcro dots to the front of the hat (they looked like little black eyes) and glued the hook parts to the back of each mic. Once mounted on top of the hat, they didn't move. I ran the cord out the back of the hat.

Security guys have seen me fiddling with the machine, but usually ignore it. Once I was asked if it recorded (I said yes, but only because the artist allows bootlegging), and I could easily have said no. I agree with A440--usually security is looking for drugs/cameras/weapons. I think even food carry-ins are considered more of a priority than recording equipment.

Other junk:

Once I switch discs, I slide the copy protect tab over and put the used discs in my shirt pocket with the MD so I don't jumble up my blanks and my recordings.

I try to set the initial recording level so the crowd noise before the show hits about the first or second bar on the level meter; this usually works, but try it at your risk.

A440 is right: LP4 is not for music, but LP2 is perfect for a crowd recording of a live show--it's not like you're starting out with the best sound anyway.

ALC will work just fine, but if there's a sudden loud passage (or sudden soft passage), you'll notice as the machine lowers/raises the record volume by increments.

For light, I wear one of those silly LED flashing pendants. Festive for shows, they also have the option to set them always on--perfect for reading your LCD screen.

I'm tired and can't remember anything else right now. Last concert I went to was spoken word--Mr Henry Rollins talked for almost 4 hours straight. Luckily I recorded in LP4 mode and got every word clear as a bell. If it was his band, however, I'd have used LP2 for better fidelity. Last conscious thought of the evening. 'bye!

[jimbhuna]

All interesting reading and useful info...Although here in the UK 'pants' have a different meaning :ohmy:

I look forward to trying at next few gigs I go to the tips on here.

Cheers

Jim bhuna

p.s. if any of you want to bootleg one of ours, go to www.bhuna.net for dates...just let us have a copy :wink:

[creatured]

I read somewhere about a guy who put his minidisc in his boot and then walked on his toes(i asumme) until he got in the venue and was able to remove it. He said it worked and wasnt that hard to walk and a few practice steps. I beliveve him,but i 'm not sure i would try it. My wife has long dreads,i told her her hair is perfect for mics to get lost in,but she doesnt care for live recrordings much or just the fact that I do it bugs her. oh i meant my ex wife(soon).)

[Reactive]

Hi Gang,

Maybe we can help, our Boost box pre-amp was designed just for this purpose. It has a handy clipping LED that lights up when your overloading your recorder. It has an adjustable gain so that you can back off the signal a bit (and thus the LED lighting up) so that you won't be lit up like a christmas tree.

Yours truly

Gerry Bolda

President

www.reactivesounds.com

[Christopher]

Welcome, Reactive! :grin: You have a nice site and business there..

[Alec]

I was going to ask about LP4 for live music recording - guess I found my answer. What goes wrong?

I use a ECM-DS70P plugged straight into my MZ-N1. No motor noise is noticable unless its a really quiet gig.

Security's not an issue at the gigs I go to (never been searched, anyway - bear in mind this is Australia and people don't carry guns), so I just stick mine in my pocket or arrive already setup - see pic.

Having the mic on top of your head gives a really good recording. The beanie doesn't interfere with the sound and holds everything in place so the mic doesn't rub against it. As its up high, there's nothing muffling the sound. If I lower the unit from head height to my shirt pocket there's a BIG difference.

[infoman]

I've been recording concerts in England since 1993 and I've been very lucky never to have failed to capture something yet. I've lost tapes and wiped minidiscs by mistake but never failed to record something.

I got my first minidisc recorder back in 2001.

As I was going to the concert I was wondering where to put my minidisc recorder. Previously I had a Sony TCS-580V dictaphone with built in mic. and I use to hold it in my hand. My finger would be placed over the recording light. However this was not possible with the minidisc recorder, as it was coloured blue and had an external microphone attached to it.

Then it occurred to me, why don't I put the minidisc recorder into the camera case. Put that around my neck and attach the microphone clip to the strap. This was perfect and is the way I've recorded with my minidisc recorders ever since.

The microphone is not above head height so I'm sure the recording will not be as good as those who use hats. However it does mean I can see the mic and it's less noticeable.

I never bother putting wires through my shirt as it's too time consuming. I also think there is more chance of the mic coming out and me not noticing it, if the wires are running all over the place.

The microphone I use is the Vivanco EM216. It was all that the shop had at the time. I had to have a stereo microphone although I admit the recordings are not that stereo sounding due to the closeness of the channels.

As the microphone is small and black and the camera case is black it's not really noticeable.

After all the security are not expecting to come across something like that so they tend not to notice it.

I was once told to stop taking photos at a concert, where in my other hand was a dictaphone. Had they noticed the dictaphone they would have stop that as well. They were not looking for it so they didn't see it right under their noses.

My best get in story was a few years ago when I went to Wembley Arena. I took with me a dictaphone and a video camera. I was purely intending to using the video camera to capture the sound as a back up to my dictaphone and also to cover the parts where I changed my tapes. So it was always going to stay in my bag. When I was searched they found the dictaphone and asked me to put it in the cloakroom.

They then asked me to take out my fleece so they could look below it. I did so. In my fleece was the video camera. They never asked me to undo the fleece. I recorded a good concert. Not wonderful sound but I've had recordings come out much worse.

I once was asked if my camera case contained a camera? I replied no. In fact in it was the minidisc recorder but they didn't need to know that.

The main problems I have it getting the sound meters right. The dictaphones tend to sort it out themselves and work quite well. However minidiscs tend to need more work to stop the recordings distorting.

I often take bags to concerts full of things so that they don't notice the minidisc recorder. Security tend not to do full searches so the more you have in your bag, the less chance they will find it.

It does mean you end up with a bag at the concert which can be a pain.

If you act normal and don't look concerned then, security shouldn't suspect anything.

Another thing might be to look like you've come from work. That way you can explain the amount of things you have. I've often been to concerts straight from work any way so had no choice but to bring a bag full of work related things, and my concert recorder.