Spare Tire Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 If sony is too stuck up to implement mp3 support for minidiscs, then why doesn't the other companies like sharp or panasonic etc make MDs with mp3 capabilities? Okay, it's an old question, and we know the awnser: because sony holds the licence for the MDs and other companies can't innovate on the product. But, what if instead of using the name Minidisc, someone would come up with a machine they CLAIM to be an mp3 player, that just HAPPENS to use the minidisc format and is backward compatible with all the previous minidiscs, support for Hi-MD, net-MD, MDLP etc. In other words, it's just a minidisc that can read mp3 (and maybe other formats like ogg) BUT without the licenced Minidisc appelation. Now, i don't know if it's legally feaseble, but oh well... anybody thought of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamewing Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 How about this: Why doesn't a company make a mp3 player that doesn't carry the name minidisc at all, but uses the minidisc as a storage medium, just as the ipod uses a standard hard drive? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alieninhead Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Mainly because it wouldn't hold much music. The MD format holds so much music because of ATRAC. You'd probably have to use at least a bitrate of 192KPS MP3 to regain the quality benefit of normal MD sound (without any LP modes, etc.) and the MD it's self won't hold much data...? It doesn't use a "standard" file system like FAT32, if I recall correctly.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spare Tire Posted May 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Mainly because it wouldn't hold much music. The MD format holds so much music because of ATRAC. What i said is that we should have a minidisc in every aspect, that ALSO supports mp3. 1. It doesn't matter if atrac is better than mp3, most of us when we use netmd convert mp3 to atrac so it gets even crappier. 2. I'd want support for both formats because if i could rip from a cd or record, i'd rip it into atrac instead of mp3. 3. It didn't matter too much when the disc was only the standart 80mins disc. Atrac made sense because of the fixed bitrate, because this much music, will fit in this much disc space, because this much time takes this much space. Now we notice that the Hi-minidisc doesn't mesure in time anymore, but in space, which means that the fixed bitrate doesn't really matter anymore. Besides Hi-MD will also hold data. SO.... as i said.... a minidisc that can read mp3 without the minidisc appelation. By not calling it a minidisc, sony wont have anything to say (right?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alieninhead Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 No, they would have a lot to say. They own the technology, not just the name of the technology. ~a.i.h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breepee Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Mainly because it wouldn't hold much music. The MD format holds so much music because of ATRAC.What's that kind of nonsense? Storing data on an MD works the one way, and one way alone, no matter what kind of data is on it. Atrac, or MP3, or programs/movies/etc. An 4 minute Atrac HiSP (256kb/s) track will take precisely as much space as an 4 minute MP3 256kb/s track. By the way, I totally like the idea. Just an MP3-player (with a decent line-out please, and something like Sony's HD-amplifier) wich uses MD disks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmp64 Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 What he was trying to say is that ATRAC is a superior CODEC to MP3 - so you can get equivalent sound with a smaller file (i.e., LP2 roughly = to MP3 192 kbps). I've done a lot of experimenting with MP3 vs. ATRAC and am currently of the opinion that the superior sound of ATRAC is due to the hardware, more than the software - i.e., the amp and eq of my MD units is superior to the MP3 players I've tested (Nomad, RCA Lyra). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamewing Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 I am aware that the idea posted earlier included the ability to use both ATRAC and MP3. I mentioned the MP3 only idea since the designer of the device could avoid paying royalties to Sony for using ATRAC. With the MD reformatted to HI-MD format (in FAT) the disc holds about 290 MB, right. At 256kbps encoding, which sounds as good as LP2, the size of file eqates to about 1 minute = 1 MB. Therefore you could get about 290 minutes of MP3's on the disc. The provides almost 5 hours of music on a little $2.00 disc, in MP3 format. I agree with the earlier post, the hardware seems to make the difference compared to the compression scheme. If you use a higher copmression ration, the MP3 sounds as good as ATRAC, albeit the file is larger, but it isn't that much bigger. I have used an iPod mini, and all I have to say it WOW. The SOLID design, ease of use, and (with 256+ compression) it sound GOOD and LOUD (if you want it to) to my older ears. Too much rock in the 80's and driving duece-and-a-halves in the Army really have torn my hearing up compared to when I was a kid. Sony, and other minidisc manufacturers, have a tough road ahead of them when compared to Apple. Apple has the lead, a great product, and isn't hampered by their size like Sony is. Sony should cut down the number of minidisc devices and increase the quality for one thing. NO MORE PLASTIC MINDISC CASES!!!! Get a clue Sony, aluminum has a great solid feel to them, or use magnesium for the light-weight feel (if you're in to that - I prefer aluminum) I am the type of person who likes odd exotic things, devices, etc. Heck, I use minidiscs, old HP calculators (HP 42s, 11c, 15c, 27s), old computers such as a Atari 800, Apple IIc, and Amiga 600/1200. I drive a Civic Hybrid and I listen mostly to Jpop and Kpop these days. Yes, I am an anime/manga fan as well. Plus I will be teaching math in a couple more years. I WANT to use the minidisc format not because of the ATRAC scheme, but due to the simple idea of using cheap little discs that hold so much more infomation. It makes sense to have an eaisly removeable battery (unlike the iPod) that can be replaced, or augmented with a AA in an emergency. The idea of a hard drive based system seem VERY short sighted. Hard drives have limited usage (time) compared to a little minidisc. PLUS, minidisc has one advantage that very few of the hard drive players can sport; you don't need a computer to record. I can make all my minidiscs in SP or LP2 by dubbing them with my Sony CD/MD deck. The only reason I even considered the net/mi-md is for titling purposes, even though the higher capacity of hi-md is intriguing. My 2cents. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alieninhead Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 What's that kind of nonsense? Storing data on an MD works the one way, and one way alone, no matter what kind of data is on it. Atrac, or MP3, or programs/movies/etc. An 4 minute Atrac HiSP (256kb/s) track will take precisely as much space as an 4 minute MP3 256kb/s track. By the way, I totally like the idea. Just an MP3-player (with a decent line-out please, and something like Sony's HD-amplifier) wich uses MD disks.Its a great idea, yes, but up til now (with the arrival of Hi-MDs) it would have been impossible for you to store MP3s on a minidisc, even natively because as far as I know the file system was not FAT, it was a Sony proprietary thing. This system was designed specifically for ATRAC, and ATRAC alone. Now I don't claim to know this for a fact, its merely a good conclusion for what I'm getting at as far as knowing the technology behind MD.... ~a.i.h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDGB2 Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Another advantage is the fact that the amount of storage space for Hi-MD is upgradable (just stick another disc in! ) Once mp3 portables are full you need to erase tracks to make room (or fork out a couple of hundred for a higher capacity model) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spare Tire Posted May 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Its a great idea, yes, but up til now (with the arrival of Hi-MDs) it would have been impossible for you to store MP3s on a minidisc, even natively because as far as I know the file system was not FAT, it was a Sony proprietary thing. This system was designed specifically for ATRAC, and ATRAC alone.I'm not so sure about that. Even in the old minidisc format, you had data MD. A solid support can hold any type of data. My hard drive is NTFS formated, and it holds mp3. Macs aren't FAT either, they hold mp3 too. Fat is just some type of table of content, right? Minidisc has it's TOC. Doesn't matter what you put on it. It was just as possible to hold mp3s on old mds. I don't know yet but i think you can use old minidisc, 80mins discs that aren't reformated to Hi-MD, to hold data (someone who has a unit can confirm this?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamewing Posted May 31, 2004 Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 I'm not so sure about that. Even in the old minidisc format, you had data MD. A solid support can hold any type of data. My hard drive is NTFS formated, and it holds mp3. Macs aren't FAT either, they hold mp3 too. Fat is just some type of table of content, right? Minidisc has it's TOC. Doesn't matter what you put on it. It was just as possible to hold mp3s on old mds. I don't know yet but i think you can use old minidisc, 80mins discs that aren't reformated to Hi-MD, to hold data (someone who has a unit can confirm this?).I have tried this. Once you format the old disc back to MD mode it will not allow the disc to be used for data transfer. What is odd is this occurs if I place on LP2 song on the disc. BUT, if I reformat to old MD mode, take the disc out, put it back in, and open Windows Explorer I can transfer data...but as a HI-MD disc. I guess it automatically reformat it for you. Hmmm Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alieninhead Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Yeah, it may very well be possible to play MP3 then..just need a decoder. Just, apparently, not on an old MD. There may be something at the root of the format it's self that causes this issue. You are right, Macs don't use FAT, Linux does not use FAT, and most modern Windows distros do not use FAT. But most MP3 players do, but this probably has to do more with the USB Mass Storage Standard than anything else. ~a.i.h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spare Tire Posted June 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hum, yes it probably has to do with the usb mass storage standart, yeah. Well, as you said, the machine needs a decoder most of all. Sometime back, there was an april fools of a dude that hacked into an N1, loaded some different software and made it play mp3. Something about an MD bootdisc :happy:. I guess it must be possible somehow. Well, i don't know. The point still being that it's even more obvious now that we have Hi-MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alieninhead Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 It'd only be possible if the decoder was software-based. Like how Music Match plays MP3 files. This aproach is clunky, and consumes a lot of processing power-not to mention RAM.(Something MD players don't have a lot of.) There is an actual peice of hardware that decodes (and presumably, can encode as many of them are ATRAC recorders as well.) the ATRAC music in the MD player. This helps cut down on costs, make it more streamlined and faster, and generally provide better quality. It'd definitely be imposible to hack an MD player today and add an MP3 function to it, without throwing out a lot of the guts. ~a.i.h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breepee Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 At 256kbps encoding, which sounds as good as LP2, the size of file eqates to about 1 minute = 1 MB. Wrong. 256kbit/s is approx. 2MB per minute. 256kbit = 32kbyte 60 seconds is 1 minute => 32kbyte * 60 = 1920kbyte. So every minute of HiSP takes nearly 2MB of diskspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spare Tire Posted June 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 It'd only be possible if the decoder was software-based. Like how Music Match plays MP3 files. This aproach is clunky, and consumes a lot of processing power-not to mention RAM.(Something MD players don't have a lot of.)Yeah, i hear ya about the hardware decoder/encoder. It wouldn't make sense to do it software in a small machine like an MD that wants to maximize battery life. I suppose a software hack would need to put a software somewhere: the anti-shock memory? ... Yeah, well it's quite impossible indeed. On a side note, now that Hi-MD has PCM, the anti-shock memory should be quite larger now to be at a decent time ahead. I wonder if they upgraded the anti-shock memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alieninhead Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 The anti-shock memory is only part of the solution to an MD player that does not skip. The other part is the read-write head that can re-align it's self if jarred out of reading place really quickly. So even if the memory was not increased at all, it'd still prove to be more skip proof than normal CD players. ~a.i.h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NRen2k5 Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 And it seems there are still plenty of people under the mistaken impression that ATRAC3 is greatly superior to MP3. I use Lame 3.90.3, and I can tell you with conviction that, depending on your encoding settings, LP2 is only as good as MP3 somewhere in between 128kbps and 160kbps. That, depending on your point of view, would mean that MD's either marginally better than MP3 specifically at the ~128kbps range, or that the formats are equal, because after all, LP2 falls just above the 128kbps mark at 132kbps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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