Hi-MD a still-born child?

[michi]

So, having (almost) decided to by a Hi-MD recorder, I'm having second thoughts, after reading all the reviews about the limited upload capability. Unless I'm a technically savvy user and know how to capture a .wav stream on my PC, there is no way to get the music I've recorded with a microphone from Hi-MD onto a normal CD that I could play on an ordinary CD player. (I *am* technically savvy, but I don't like having to jump through the extra hoops -- it should be easier than this.)

As a musician, the recording capability of MD is the only thing that interests me. (I need high-quality and portable recording. And I need the ability to give those recordings to people on CD.)

Given that the recording capability of MD is the key advantage it has over HD players, that made me wonder about the life expectancy of MD. Suppose someone builds an HD player, say with a 5-10GB disc, that can record. What happens to MD then? My prediction is that MD and Hi-MD will be dead as a door nail the instant someone makes an HD player that can record.

After all, why would I still bother with MD then? With a 5-10GB hard drive, I can record tons of stuff before I run out of space on the player. And, having recorded tons of stuff, I can then effortlessly transfer the recordings to ordinary CD-ROM, at a cost of cents each (not dollars each). Moreover, the CD-ROMs will play just about anywhere in the known universe, whereas mini discs will play, well, only on MD players (and Hi-MD discs only on Hi-MD players).

And, if I really want to pack a lot of stuff onto a single disc, say, for archiving, I can use DVD-R and get 4.7 GB onto a single disc (or 8.5 GB on a dual-layer disc). And doing this is still much cheaper than getting the same capacity as MD or Hi-MD.

So, what life does MD have left? It appears to me that it is very little -- the first HD recorder will wipe out MD for good. Thereafter, bye bye MD...

Cheers,

Michi.

[vorlik]

Err... there are already two very capable HD recorders/music players: The iRiver H series and the Creative Nomad Jukebox 3.

[michi]

Yes, I did a bit more research and found the iRiver H 320. See http://www.iriver.com/product/info.asp?p_name=H320 for some details. (I know that this model isn't available in the US just yet, but I expect it won't be much longer.)

The price is the same as for a Sony MZ-NHF800. For that, I get the following key features that (in my opinion) run rings around anything Hi-MD can do:

- 20GB hard drive

- 2" 260000 color LCD screen with backlight. (I don't know what resolution -- the specs don't mention. But it's quite good, probably in the 160x160 range or so. Very bright, and very easy to read.)

- Both USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 ports.

- Digital in and *out* via USB pors.

- Built-in lithium polymer battery with 16 hours battery life in playback, rechargeable through USB connection as well as with the included power adapter.

- External battery pack for four AA batteries included. (Battery pack clips to the side of the unit.) External batteries can optionally be used to charge internal battery.

- Built-in FM radio 20 settable channels (can record from radio).

- Both line-in and line-out connectors.

- Built-in mono microphone.

- Supports MPEG 1/2/2.5 Layer 3, OGG Vorbis, WMA, ASF, JPG, BMP.

- No issues of any kind around copyright protection. I can move recordings straight onto CD or any other medium.

- (Simple) remote control included.

- Comes with carry case with belt clip, USB cable, USB host cable, earphones, extern, line-in/out cable, external lapel microphone (mono, with clip).

- Acts as USB host adapter, so you can transfer image files from a digital camera directly to the player without the need for a PC. Can view images on built-in screen.

- Doubles up as portable external 20GB hard drive for computers.

- Works with all versions of Windows. No driver required for Win ME, 2000, and XP.

- Firmware upgradable for new codecs and features.

- Only a fraction larger and heavier than an MD player (62.1 X 22 X 103mm, 183g).

In summary, the H 320 is a much more versatile and useful device in my opinion, at the same price as a Hi-MD player.

Cheers,

Michi.

[jazmaan]

Hmmm. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see much detail at that link about its recording capabilities other than the paragraph about "upgraded voice recording" where they say "Makes it easy to record VOICE". I'm suspicious that's codespeak for 8-BIT MONO mic recording just like the Ipod. What do you think?

[Rumz]

Wait, how much is this and where are you getting the price from? The NHF800 ought to be able to be had for between $200-$250, if I'm not mistaken.

Still, I own an iRiver H100 and I don't quite like it as much for live recording as MD, mainly due to the limitations on how long a file can be and the time it takes to save one file and start a new one. Now, if they've fixed this on the H300 series so that you can start a new track without having to wait 10-15 seconds, then it will be a much more viable option for portable recording. It looks hideous, but useful nonetheless. Perhaps they have fixed this, as they're boasting a "autosync" feature (which hopefully is similar to MD's autosync/auto-track mark-- one of my biggest gripes about the H100 was the lack thereof.)

As useful as the H300 sounds, it's too early IMO to call Hi-MD a stillborn. For those who need to buy now, perhaps it's not the best option. Down the road though, it remains to be seen what will happen with software and upload capabilities. I suppose it's best to prepare for the worst-- then you'll be less disappointed :laugh:

[Rumz]

Hmmm.  Maybe I missed it but I didn't see much detail at that link about its recording capabilities other than the paragraph about "upgraded voice recording" where they say "Makes it easy to record VOICE".    I'm suspicious that's codespeak for 8-BIT MONO mic recording just like the Ipod.  What do you think?

Well if it's anything like the H1xx series, it'll handle 44.1khz 16 bit stereo wave files and it'll have a mic jack similar to MD.

[vorlik]

Although the H-series (H120, H320, etc) lacks recording level meters, it can record WAV audio files through a microphone, as well as mp3's up to 320 kbps. In other words, it's better than the crap iPod add-on. But really, the Nomad Jukebox 3 has the best recording facilities availiable, as well as upgradabitlity to an 80gb hard drive.

[michi]

Hmmm.  Maybe I missed it but I didn't see much detail at that link about its recording capabilities other than the paragraph about "upgraded voice recording" where they say "Makes it easy to record VOICE".    I'm suspicious that's codespeak for 8-BIT MONO mic recording just like the Ipod.  What do you think?

No, I just tried it. It's stereo recording, and you can select the quality at 40, 48, 56, 64, 80, 96, 112, 128, 160, 192, 224, 256, or 320 kbps.

Cheers,

Michi.

[michi]

Wait, how much is this and where are you getting the price from?  The NHF800 ought to be able to be had for between $200-$250, if I'm not mistaken.

This is in Australia. An NHF800 costs $598 here (Australian dollars, that is), and the iRiver H 320 costs $627. (And I got mine for $600 anyway.)

Still, I own an iRiver H100 and I don't quite like it as much for live recording as MD, mainly due to the limitations on how long a file can be and the time it takes to save one file and start a new one.  Now, if they've fixed this on the H300 series so that you can start a new track without having to wait 10-15 seconds, then it will be a much more viable option for portable recording.

There is still a pause when you stop a recording. For a short recording, it takes maybe 3 seconds. I just did a 10-minute recording via the built-in tuner (at 320 kbps). After pressing "stop", it took 6 seconds for the file to be saved. That's good enough I think, at least for my needs.

It looks hideous, but useful nonetheless.  Perhaps they have fixed this, as they're boasting a "autosync" feature (which hopefully is similar to MD's autosync/auto-track mark-- one of my biggest gripes about the H100 was the lack thereof.)

It has autosync and auto-track mark. You can set the length of the pause for auto-track mark.

As useful as the H300 sounds, it's too early IMO to call Hi-MD a stillborn.  For those who need to buy now, perhaps it's not the best option.  Down the road though, it remains to be seen what will happen with software and upload capabilities.  I suppose it's best to prepare for the worst-- then you'll be less disappointed  :laugh:

Fair enough -- the final word hasn't been spoken yet, I agree. But I'm blown away by how much I'm getting with the H 320 at the same price as a mid-range Hi-MD player. As far as value for money is concerned, I think it's simply no contest.

Cheers,

Michi.

[DrZhivago]

So, having (almost) decided to by a Hi-MD recorder, I'm having second thoughts, after reading all the reviews about the limited upload capability. Unless I'm a technically savvy user and know how to capture a .wav stream on my PC, there is no way to get the music I've recorded with a microphone from Hi-MD onto a normal CD that I could play on an ordinary CD player. (I *am* technically savvy, but I don't like having to jump through the extra hoops -- it should be easier than this.)

As a musician, the recording capability of MD is the only thing that interests me. (I need high-quality and portable recording. And I need the ability to give those recordings to people on CD.)

Given that the recording capability of MD is the key advantage it has over HD players, that made me wonder about the life expectancy of MD. Suppose someone builds an HD player, say with a 5-10GB disc, that can record. What happens to MD then? My prediction is that MD and Hi-MD will be dead as a door nail the instant someone makes an HD player that can record.

After all, why would I still bother with MD then? With a 5-10GB hard drive, I can record tons of stuff before I run out of space on the player. And, having recorded tons of stuff, I can then effortlessly transfer the recordings to ordinary CD-ROM, at a cost of cents each (not dollars each). Moreover, the CD-ROMs will play just about anywhere in the known universe, whereas mini discs will play, well, only on MD players (and Hi-MD discs only on Hi-MD players).

And, if I really want to pack a lot of stuff onto a single disc, say, for archiving, I can use DVD-R and get 4.7 GB onto a single disc (or 8.5 GB on a dual-layer disc). And doing this is still much cheaper than getting the same capacity as MD or Hi-MD.

So, what life does MD have left? It appears to me that it is very little -- the first HD recorder will wipe out MD for good. Thereafter, bye bye MD...

Cheers,

Michi.

I would have thought that only digital recordins(those you record via optical cable)can't be modified. Don't think that there's any problem with uploading of analog recordings. Am I mistaken?

Cheers

[ekiekitabaang]

well.. I have been searching a HD recorder that could record a performance, lecture or something at least 1 hour, but I have found that no HD recorder can promise more than 1/2 hour recording after it stops (as far as I know).

I think this incapability of long record takes goes hand in hand with the fact that there is pause before you can start another recording. it's about the lack of cache memory. When recording something to hard drive one needs a lot of cache memory which there is not enough in the i-river etc. cheap HD recorders, thus it stops recording after awhile.

.. but as what comes to MDs I have been recording reliably over 2 hour lecture and our gigs which may take even longer period when we are carried away. :love:

Because of the long recordings I also need a better way to capture the sound to my computer for editing purposes.. better than in real time through my m-audio soundcard.

I'm happy to hear that SONY will allow wav capture through USB upload soon. But what else they could do while they must clearly understand that without this functionality the MD recorder is actually still lacking the easy upload that people were crying after.

Anyway... I'm waiting either the upload -> wav software for Hi-MD or a portable HD that is designed mainly for live recording.. or a winning lottery ticket to buy a professional recorder.

[pnx]

hey man you need to take a good look at the specs because 1 1/2 hours is for PCM quality... for speech you can just use hi-lp and get up to 34 hours.

One big problem of mine of these iriver and creative players are the equalizers... I really the bass you can get with sony's. Nor do I like the design of the Iriver players. And the remote really doesnt look nice... i rather keep that in my pocket than hanging it in my clothes. Of course there is also the disc issue, some people want much more than 20gb and i want much less...and here in europe the price of a mz-nh700 is much cheaper than a 20gb player.

You see even though sony is forcing me to use sonicstage, i must say I really like there products (except the whole atrac thing... if the hdd player could play native MP3 and be priced as the same as an Ipod i would consider it, but no native MP3 for HDD is bullshit)

[ekiekitabaang]

ok.. sorry I may not know the ability of newest HD player/recorders. I?m just guessing while reading some old reviews of these kind of HD portable player/recorders.

ihp120 gave something like 70 minutes of recording time and even the Neuros audio computer promises only 30 minutes of skip protection

I have also been reading about this recording glitch that occurred with H1xx-series. is that fixed in newest models.

all these old articles makes me feel a bit unsecured when I want to have high quality.

anyway.. 1 1/2 hours is still not enough for some of live recording.

i would rather have a recorder that says how many hours instead of minutes there is safe recording time.

has anybody any actual experience of recording even this long takes uncompressed audio with portable HD equipment. that there is absolutely no unwanted noise or skip because of some kind of buffer under run?

[aeriyn]

You all seem to be forgetting that Hi-MD is a removable media recorder.

Sure, you can get 1 1/2 hours of linear PCM audio on one Hi-MD. When it's full, pop it out and put another one in. Thus, you could record endlessly as long as you had enough Hi-MDs.

With a HDD player, this is not the case. You would fill up your drive (rather quickly, too, if you were recording uncompressed audio) and then you would be forced to either overwrite earlier recording or take the device to a computer to dump it out.

I'm not too keen on Hi-MD; it can't do much more than my N10 for what I use it for. When I do live recordings, SP mode is fine for me; I'm not worried about recording in linear PCM. I'm patient enough to put the disc in my deck and run it through the optical out to my sound card. I guess this is different for me since I maybe only live-record 2 or 3 slow-play MDs per month; generally only when one of the bands I know needs to get a recording done in a hurry.

I'm going to wait a generation or two before I pick up a Hi-MD unit, but if you're going to do a lot of recording, I would recommend it especially with the SonicStage WAVE Converter that will be released in August. It's supposed to let you upload and convert all audio recorded in ATRAC3plus 256kpbs to linear PCM .wav, which can be burned to a normal audio CD, encoded as an MP3, etc.

Hope this helps. >.>;

[aeriyn]

except the whole atrac thing... if the hdd player could play native MP3 and be priced as the same as an Ipod i would consider it, but no native MP3 for HDD is bullshit

Agreed. Sony's NW-HD1 should definitely have had native MP3 playback.

Judging from the changes in design from normal MiniDisc to Hi-MD, I don't think it would have been much of a stretch to allow Hi-MD to utilize native MP3 playback and recording as well; since the device can function as a USB data drive, it utilizes a more common file system than the MiniDisc Audio System that the previous MD units uses.

But of course, Sony is not that cool. Hi-MD with native MP3 playback and recording; I would've been first in line. ~

[skyther]

Mate, I haven't even filled my 20GB Pod past the 10GB mark, and all I use is Apple Lossless. 10GBs = about one and a half days worth of music in compressed Lossless. You seem to be forgetting that these are all portable devices. Really, I've yet to run out of 'refreshing' tunes to listen to, and chances are I don't really need 3 days worth of lossless audio on the move. 40GBs would give you a weeks worth of lossless audio, heh. Re the Hi-MD removable media argument, I'll see you carrying over 10 discs around with you. I go out with my MD, the only disc I'll be carrying is the one in my player.

You will never need more than 40GBs of lossless audio for portable use. Worry about what you need now, not what you might need in the future. It takes half an hour to fill up 1 Hi-MD disc, yet you can fill up a 20GB iPod in the same time.

For home use, you should be looking at this.

[aeriyn]

Yeah, you obviously enjoy irritating me. ¬.¬

I guess it really comes down to preference. You know, it would probably be easier, sound better and be more user-friendly if I bought an ipod or some other more accessible mainstream player instead of continuing to use my MD, but I've grown attached to it.

And yes... I concede your point about the recording issue.

I can admit when I'm wrong. xP

[dex Otaku]

For home use, you should be looking at this.

I am leery of SACD. I agree with the AES that 1-bit SD is not a good format. I can't find a link to their paper [presented at the 110th Convention, 2001 May 12–15] but if you want a copy I can put it on my server for you.

[skyther]

Sorry. :happy:

No, the SCD-1 is a supposedly very good player in general, not just for SACD but also Redbook playback.

[dex Otaku]

Sorry. :happy:

No, the SCD-1 is a supposedly very good player in general, not just for SACD but also Redbook playback.

I went and read the review, sounds about right.