Stereo or Moni MS907

[sup8]

For club recordings.. live rock, hip hop loud shows. is stereo 120 too much for the MD to handle? i have only recorded shows on 90 moni. i don't have a pre amp, but i do have base roll off box, and the RSHVC. could i pull a better sound with stereo 120? this show on Fri is going to be loud as hell in a medium size bar. there isn't anything comparable to test it on first.. so its a one shot deal. will be using the mic in, on low sens with the MZ-N10. i'd be happy to hear any input. cheers -Tony

P.S. can i use the bass roll off box, and the RSHVC. perhaps if i go Mic- bass rolloff- RSHVC- MD?

[dex Otaku]

90 and 120 refer to the angle-width in stereo of an MS microphone [mid-side].

Changing the angle shouldn't alter levels that much. It only alters the apparent width of the soundstage.

Specs for the MS907 say, "Maximum Sound Pressure Level Input: more than 110dB SPL" which is fairly high, actually, but still - you might end up with distortion in your recording from the music simply being too loud for it to cope with.

What it RSHVC?

[A440]

If it's going to be ear-splitting you're best off with Mic-Battery Box-LINE IN (not Mic-in). Your bass roll-off box probably also works as a battery box--check your instructions.

RSHVC is the Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control, technically a variable attenuator (lowers the signal through it), which you may not need at all with the N10 since it has the low sensitivity switch. Combining it with the bass roll-off will probably cut the signal way too much.

Even if you can't get the exact conditions in the bar, why not try blasting your home stereo and putting the mic near the speaker with various combinations. It will give you some idea of what's going on.

Another alternative is to make the opening act --or the first song--your sound check. Record a little, duck into the men's room to listen, and make changes accordingly. Or bring a little flashlight and look at the level meter as you record.

[sup8]

Thanks, I'll try a couple of combos.

[barnkim]

sup8, could you post some feedback on how your taping went, what levels you used, and possible improvements?

I'm going to be taping a concert soon, similar to the one you described (ie small bar, loud as hell). I'll be using the mz-nh1 and ms907, with the low sensitivity and loudmusic settings. However, I dont have a pre-amp or bass roll off box. I was planning to adjust the levels before I taped. Should I spend the extra cash for them or what could someone else recommend? Does the RSHVC help that much?

[Markr041]

The "Loud Music" setting is for AGC. It is irrelevant for when you record using manual mode (setting the level yourself). Low sensitivity, of course, is relevant, and is the correct setting for loud music.

We have to face the fact that at this stage no one has much experience recording live music using Hi-MD device, so the "advice" given for those is based on speculation informed by non-Hi-MD devices. Your own experience with the equipment you have will be very informative.

[dex Otaku]

I have already recorded music at an open-air festival, sitting in the middle of the crowd with in-ear binaural mics plugged into a MZ-NH700. I had no problems whatsoever.

The same rules apply as with original MD equipment...

In the MZ-NH700 menus the terminology is as follows -

RECVolume - (Auto) AGC -or- Manual

I would avoid AGC for anything but voice recording, and I would still avoid it then. Think .. dynamic compression. It sounds like crap, generally.

Manual levels mean you have to pay -some- attention to what's going on. This is what I always use, and while I do occasionally run into overloaded sections [like when a train unexpectedly shifts and makes a 'boom' sound that is 30dB louder than the rest of what I've recorded] but this way you get to preserve something closer to the original dynamic range.

Mic AGC - Standard -or- LoudMusic

Standard: about the equivalent of a soft-knee compressor. Medium-high attack, slow release. Fine for voice recording, or situations where you know the volume doesn't shift too hard too fast.

LoudMusic: Lower threshold, fast attack, fast release, hard-knee compression. This is for when you know the sound is going to be loud, with periodic fast [re: loud] attacks.

AGC is overridden by Manual RecVolume.

Mic Sens - Sens High -or- Sens Low

Sens High: high-gain [probably around an additional +35dB? Anyone know for sure? I haven't measured] on the mic preamp.

Sens Low: means 'normal' gain, probably near to unity assuming a certain mic impedance.

These settings have their equivalent on every MD recorder I've ever used. The general principles are the same, so the actual format [MD, MDLP, Hi-MD] is completely irrelevant as far as their effects are concerned.

[Markr041]

This is all useful and true, but right from the manual.

The real issue is what settings to use for which kinds of music or venues: What is "loud" music in practice, for example? Is a trombone quartet loud, calling for low sensitivity setting, or is it soft? is an orchestra loud or soft? is a soprano in a small room loud or soft?

You recorded at an open air festival - so; what kind of music was it/ how far away from the source were you? did you use high sensitivity or low? or did you use an outboard pre-amp? how do we know that what you did was "best' - what are the criteria - minimum signal/noise ratio with no "overs"? or what?

And, we do not know that the electronics in the new devices are the same as in the old ones, just because they have the same nomimal settings (but my old Sharp certainly did not have two types of AGC) does not mean they have the same specs.

[dex Otaku]

Right from the manual? I don't know. I haven't read that part of it.

The issue isn't that the electronics are the same or different. It's that the basic principles that decide how high and low sens work have been around as rough standards for probably 40+ years.

Outdoor music festival: played through PA, sitting maybe 75ft from either speaker in dead centre [right in front of the sound booth]. Low mic sensitivity, manual rec volume set at about 10/30 [which is meaningless since this varies mic to mic, with position, with how loud the PA is, whether mics are pointed directly at the speakers or some incident angle, etc.] I don't have an outboard preamp yet, which in situations such as this [where the sound being recorded is consistently loud anyway] doesn't matter so much since it's so far above the noise floor.

As far as 'best' is concerned, my peaks were around the -12 to -6dB point. Signal/noise ratio is almost irrelevent because this was recorded from the middle of the crowd - where I had no control over 100% of the sound that was reaching me. Mind you, that's the kind of recording it was intended to be. Basically, I just make sure my peaks aren't clipping and go with it.

As to your question about what is 'loud' in practice: every situation is different. Pretty much all you can do is try your options in each one and see what works best. Eventually you'll be able to walk into a situation and simply know what to use.

My general experience though:

* in a smaller room, sound tends to be louder at the mic - due to proximity, as well as room reflections, etc.

* the farther you are from your source, the quieter it is at the mic. Higher gain may be needed to get signal at the recorder. This depends on how loud the source is, of course.

* If the source is amplified, it's probably loud enough already, and doesn't need additional gain.

* Acoustic instruments -up close- also won't likely need additional gain.

* An orchestra - heh. Really? Chances are you don't need additional gain for this, either - if you have good mics, at least, and are at a reasonable distance [say, within 10-15ft behind the conductor]. Thing is, with an orchestra you'll probably be experiencing a dynamic range that is higher than with almost any other type of music. Crank up the gain, and you'll lose the loud parts.

* Soprano in a small room: can't get much louder than this, I'd say.

What it comes down to is you have to ask yourself: How loud will the loudest parts be from where my mic is? If the loudest your expect it to be is fairly quiet, go with high sens. Otherwise, stick with normal.

Basically .. here, here's a slightly different take.

Assuming that you're using manual record levels, you should -never- need to use high mic sensitivity unless what you're recording is:

* really far away

* really quiet

or * both of the above

The only things I've ever switched to high sens for were recording sounds like birdsong. Others would use it for recording a speaker at a lecture who is standing far away from where they're seated.

[Markr041]

That's really neat, and useful.

My experience so far in recording an orchestra of 85 people from about three rows from the front in the middle was a setting (manual mode) at high-sensitivity, 14/30 and it never reached -4 (playing a big and loud (in part) Brahms piece). Similar experience at a pops band concert, front row middle but about 20 feet away - high sensitivity, -2 peaks, at 15/30. This was with the Sony 907 mic. So, what mike is used seems to matter a lot, since my expereince seems quiet diferent than yours. I was using the 800, recording PCM. Anyway the results were fine, and you are right, S/N hardly matters given crowd-ambience noise at live concerts.

The loudest I ever encountered, which did overload some of my mikes, was a single soprano in a small room, with the mike about three feet away (Sony 959 mike).

[dex Otaku]

That would sound about right for a MS907. [i did a lot of impromptu foley work last year using one because it was all we had]

It also helps to keep in mind that like light, sound follows an inverse-square ratio when it comes to distance from source: if you move twice as far away, you get 1/4 the volume at the mic. Likewise if you move to half as far away, you get 4 times the volume at the mic.

Woo! Lightning outside! Time go record some thunder, methinks. Speaking of trial and error re: levels..

I'd be interested in hearing some samples from your recordings. Would be interested in a trade of sorts?

[Markr041]

Trade is fine - how do we do it?

[barnkim]

Thanks for the information about the different settings. I think I'm going to buy a battery module w/ bass roll off to be on the safe side. The concert is at the end of August and I'm just running tests until then. Afterwards, I'll post some feedbact about how it went.

[dex Otaku]

Are you buying to batt module to use with a MS907? I'm mixed up, now.

[barnkim]

Well, my ms907 uses an internal batter, so I no that I dont need the battery box for it.

However, I've been looking at the SP-SPSB-x models from Sound Professionals for something with bass roll off. The batt box just comes along with it. This would work, right?

[dex Otaku]

For bass rolloff, yes. It would have no other real benefit, though.