Midiman Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 I had my first experience attempting to record a live performance by Yes at the Bell Center in Montreal last night. The results were pretty dismal. The input level on my N707 was set pretty low... so the unbelieveable amount of distortion was obviously due to the inability of a cheap set of stereo condenser lavs to handle the SPL. Anyone have any recommendations for a decent, small (preferably lav type) mic that will handle the sometimes extreme SPLs at rock concerts? I'm willing to spend a couple of hundred bucks on something good... $1200 mics are out of my range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 I don't know what kind of mics you were using, but unless they were self-powered lavs, the problem was not likely the mics. The problem was likely one of two things: 1) the mics were underbiased using plugin-power from the MD or 2) the mic preamp on your MD couldn't handle the volume There's also 3) you may have had the mic preamp set for high sensitivity, which would allow you to probably get levels reading okay but would end up recording continuous clipping. Solution for nos. 1 and 2 is to use an external preamp/battery box. Like this: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-PREAMP Battery boxes use higher bias voltages for your mics, meaning more headroom, more dynamic range, and higher SPL handling without distortion. As far as better mics go, try looking around on the Sound Professionals site as well as Reactive Sounds. They both have exactly what you're asking for at reasonable prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midiman Posted August 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Thanks for the response. The mics were a set of cheap (really cheap) plastic condenser lavs from Radio Shack that were powered from the N707 although they have an external battery box. The signal never peaked above the 4th bar so I don't think the cause was input signal level regardless of the mic sensitivity setting which I'm not sure the N707 has... I know my N10 did... but that's another long disgusting story. My N707 HAS the setting, but only as the result of an OS hack that added some features, and I don't believe it actually does anything because the hardware isn't there to support it in the mic preamp in the 707. I see a lot of mics that are only rated for an SPL of 100db or maybe 110... that just isn't quite enough for a decent rock concert. I'd have to check the specs on these but I doubt they're very high. I want to keep the rig as small and portable (and inconspicuous) as possible... therefore, toting around an external preamp is my last choice. Regardless, I'm definitely looking for an upgrade from a set of $19 RS lavs to a more professional mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Granted, as portable as possible is what you seek. Most mics [that are small enough to be considered stealth] that can handle really high SPL are condensors, though. And most of them will require higher external power than the 1.5-3V your MD can provide in order to actually work at the SPL range of a very loud concert, which means needing either a battery box or a battbox/preamp. I will be looking to get one myself ASAP because I need a lower noise preamp than what the MZ-NH700 has in it to do certain recordings. Of course, many battboxes/preamps like the Sound Professionals one there are not much different in size from the MD unit itself. It's not like we're talking about toting a mixing desk around with you. We're talking about another couple of ounces' weight in another pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Briefly: Deep bass freaks out the MZ-N707's preamp. I don't know why your level meter wasn't peaking, but the distortion is just how the MZ-N707 works. It's not insurmountable. First, get some decent mics. Basic binaurals from Sound Professionals or Microphone Madness or Reactive Sounds are fine, and if you can spend $150-$200 you can definitely get all the mic you need. Get the clips with them, because clips are a pain to find elsewhere. I clip them to the tabs of my shirt collar. You can clip them to glasses, a hat, whatever (just don't be turning your head a lot). Higher is better, but the shirt collar works for me because it's unobtrusive and you don't usually turn your body if you turn your head, so the stereo perspective isn't always swinging around. And you can slip the wire down your shirt, across your belt and into the MD that's hanging at your waist. Dex Otaku is absolutely right from the purist point of view, and he has given sound advice here and in a whole bunch of other topics. Mic-->Battery Box-->Line In works well for loud concerts, and one of the Preamp/Battery Box combinations from SoundPros or elsewhere gives you flexibility for eveything from quiet sounds that need amplification (Preamp) to loud ones that need damping (Battery Box). But for the less pure, perfectly workable el cheapo solution, which is absolutely hi-fi enough for me and my MZ-N707, get a Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control (it's pictured with my signature) for $6.59. Sound Pros sells the exact same product as a Variable Attenuator--attenuating (lowering) the volume. Turn its little volume control all the way up for anything but the loudest shows, and you will have a nifty recording. Try it, you'll be pleased. By the way, you're right that the MZ-N707 hack doesn't give you mic sensitivity--it's not in the hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammin72 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Most of the omni "Stealth" mics out there are all based on the same Panasonic capsules and they have no problem handling the SPL. For recording shows that utilize a PA system getting a battery box that will allow you to go "Line In" to your recorder is definitely the way to go. Not only do you avoid the overload issue you also end up with a lower noise floor and increased dynamic range. We've been selling mics like this for years and they're hard to beat for the money. Most of our customers were using the portable Sony DAT Walkman units which we are able to upgrade the mic pre circuitry for that prevents this overload scenario. The MiniDisc units just don't have enough territory on the mic pre section to allow for the modifications so we utilize the same battery box idea for MiniDisc recording. If you've already invested your $$ in your mics and the battery box you have does not provide enough output for The wonderful thing about omnidirectional mics is that you can get very good sounding microphones for not a lot of money but your positioning in the recording environment becomes critical. Your brain filters out a lot of things automatically at a concert (tubby bass, high frequency reflections, and people chatter), something that no omni+recorder can do. Finding the sweet spot in the room makes the difference between a recording that has no right to sound as good as it does for the $$ invested to wondering why you spent the $$ in the first place. Love and Light, Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup8 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Has anyone used the Sony MS-957? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dex Otaku Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 The 957 has quite decent specs. I've never used one but have enough experience with M/S mics to know that there are situations where you don't want to use them - mostly where the source is liable to get very close to the mic [stereo separation disintegrates if the source is too close to one or the other side, it's okay right in front]. M/S mics are generally recommended for broadcast use [because you get a true mono mixdown without any phasing]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllanH Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 I've been using a 957 for external ambient work. Sounds OK although not as open as my Rode NT4. On the other hand its doesn't suffer from damp weather, unlike the NT4. The 957 has a degree of self noise on quiet recordings, but I guess this won't be a problem in a concert! When using the 957 with a 20dB preamp feeding into the mic input of NH900, I did find that it was easy to run into distortion on loud sounds even though the level meters were not indicating problems. Guess I just ran out of head room on the preamp. It s pity Sony dont specify a 9V battery with their electrets. This would improve S/N and increase maximum SPL at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A440 Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 If you're using a preamp, then why not run it into Line-In? Otherwise you're amplifying the signal twice, once with the little pre-amp built into the mic jack, and maybe the headroom problem is with the NH900. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reactive Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 We have a good product range that would fit your budget. The Auris Stereo microphone system is well suited for live events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHURCH-AUDIO Posted September 22, 2004 Report Share Posted September 22, 2004 In response to your question about good quality recording mics for live concerts and location work please check out my Church Audio professional binaural mics please follow the link to my ebay store we recomend you also purchase a preamp as well ours pads the input of your md by -27 db the rest of the volume is made up from your line input volume control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 I believe this thread has served it's purpose. [the thread had to be locked because of posts that had to be deleted] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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