philippeb

May I add that the rare and unique Sony DCM-M1 minidisc camcorder allows similar editing of video recordings. It has all the features of regular MD machines, plus invaluable unlimited undo (alas undocumented and unadvertised).

ATRAC compression/decompression is definitely lossy: sound quality audibly degrades with generations. That is true for digital and analog copies. I assume that this was an early Sony requirement, precisely to avoid identical copies of copyrighted sound material. Ironically, the W1 meets the requirement, as it slightly damages the last 1/86s of the track :-) Well done.

Yes, Stephen, you must be right. I am not competent in hardware, and I had not thought of that. I could only imagine 4x less data being transfered. Thank you for your explanations!

The author of the minidisc.org MDS-W1 page http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MDS-W1.html seems to confirm my perception. I quote: Unusual "Inter Disc Move" function will move a song from one disc to another at 4 times realtime, defragmenting the copy and deleting the original. The move is done losslessly in the digital domain with raw ATRAC data.

Oh now I got you (sorry, I did not understand what you meant earlier). Again, observing the W1 as a black box, one can distinguish three different copy modes between deck A and deck B: Fast (4x) lossless W1 MOVE: ATRAC data read|digital copy|ATRAC data write Real-time lossy digital copy: ATRAC data read|ATRAC decompression|digital copy|ATRAC compression|ATRAC data write Real-time lossier analog copy: ATRAC data read|ATRAC decompression|digital to analog conversion|analog copy|analog to digital conversion|ATRAC compression|ATRAC data write How this is implemented in hardware, I do not know. From what I have read, ATRAC compression/decompression is asymmetric and lossy, by design. Therefore, I am not comfortable with your hypothesis.

I am unable to read the schematic. But I know for sure that the W1 does ATRAC domain copies, that avoid ATRAC decoding/encoding stages. I can ear the difference between a 1st and a 2nd gen track, and I can assure you that the W1 does 1st gen copies. I never pay attention to which copy is the original, because they all are. I usually edit my current MD hundreds, if not thousands, of times. Each time fragmentation becomes excessive (too many seeks required, to much space lost), I do a full copy on a blank disc, and restart editing from there. The defragmentation that accompanies the copy typically recovers 1 or 2 minutes of recording time from a full disc. I often repeat that procedure many times while composing a single disc. When I am done, the final master MD will have been copied half a dozen times. And I will make one more copy for my wife, or for friends. And all those copies will be as many more master copies. I have never lost an "original" recording, with the blessed W1. SCMS bits are ignored, because they control how tracks are copied, not moved :-) SCMS bits are copied along, regardless of their values. My guess is that the generous Sony engineers that built the W1 were perfectly aware of what they were doing: they deliberately suppressed all copy restrictions, but could not advertise it :-( As I said in an earlier post, I would not have invested in MD, if the W1 had not existed. IMHO, the capacity to make perfect copies is the essence of digital recording. I was looking for a durable, convenient, versatile, physical medium, and I found it. Again, I do recommend the MDS-W1 for long term original sound recording archival on MD.

Here you are: $ ls -l *.wav -r-------- 1 felix users 27417196 Oct 4 18:33 001-Jacques Grello.wav -r-------- 1 felix users 27417196 Oct 4 18:33 036-Jacques Grello.wav $ cmp *.wav 001-Jacques Grello.wav 036-Jacques Grello.wav differ: char 27370545, line 264673 $ cmp -l *.wav | head 27370545 301 300 27370655 111 112 27370659 331 332 27370661 175 176 27370665 24 25 27370679 170 171 27370703 221 222 27370707 307 310 27370717 303 304 27370729 317 320 First 27.370.544 bytes are strictly identical. Last 46.652 bytes differ slightly. That is is probably a firmware bug, that can easily be circumvented: pad the track with a sound quantum; copy; remove the padding. Practically, the difference is unnoticeable, except in rare cases where sound does not fade at the end of the track.

Stephen, What makes the W1 unique is the disc to disc MOVE function. That function bypasses the ATRAC decode/reencode steps, and directly copies ATRAC data from disc to disc. The copy occurs at 4x real-time speed, because only compressed ATRAC data bits are transmitted between discs. I insist: this is a bit to bit copy (even if the disc layout can differ when defrag is involved). For the record, the trick: after MOVE completion, one have to super UNDO the source disc to actually achieve the perfect 1rst gen copy. The W1 also permits the usual deck to deck copy, ie ATRAC -> decode -> transmit -> reencode -> ATRAC, that honours the SCMS protections: decoded bits are transmitted in the digital domain when allowed, otherwise they are transmitted via the built-in analog connection. I never use that regular lossy copy function (why would I when I can do lossless copies with MOVE ?), except when I want to copy from STEREO to MONO, or change the recording level.

Or buy a used MDS-W1 and enjoy unlimited 1st gen MD copies. Sorry for repeating: the MDS-W1 is _the_ answer to the MD archival/backup problem discussed here. You will also get 1st gen defragmentation, a must if you edit a lot.

Dropping MONO, that the RH1 prototype and earlier machines could do, to make room for whatever MP3 related feature in the final consumer version of the RH1, was a very bad move, IMHO. I have absolutely no use for MP3, and I badly miss MONO (in the RH1).

I have never tried the usb upload facility. If I remember well, upload via usb was realtime, and limited to versions of Windows that could assign sound input to a usb device.

Yes they are expensive, but IMHO they are worth the money. I hope you will enjoy editing your films with the DCM-M1 as much as I do. I spend much more time editing than filming (20 to 50 times more !!!)

You can order them from Audio Cubes II. http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/MiniDisc/product/Sony_MMD-650A_650MB_MDData2_Blank_MiniDisc__(5pc).html

The MZ-B10 is a lovely recorder. I have one. My wife has one. We use them every day. We have a spare unit, also, just in case.

Very nice machine. Mine sits on my desk, at work, connected to a Sangean radio.

I bought my JA333ES (new, boxed, sealed) for 250 euros on eBay. I think that this JA555ES is overpriced.

Nightwish live in Paris (2002 or 2004, I do not know), unexpected bootleg found on a used minidisc, sold as blank on eBay. Nice recording, wonderful sound.

Please cool down star, Bwil is not insulting you ; he is showing empathy for other forum members. It is not a bad attitude, or feeling.

Back to topic: how well and how often do you backup your storage unit ?

I tend to disagree, because I do not trust computer storage at all . How well and how often do you backup your computer data ? I do trust legacy MD. I archive all my precious (unique) recordings on two identical MD copies that I keep in different buildings.

My mother, who is 80, also uses and loves minidiscs (and cassette tapes).

I jumped from analog tapes to MD exactly for that: the ability to make lossless copies of my recordings, without a PC.

All these Sony decks will do: In the *30 family: JE530, JE630, JB930. In the *40 family: JE440, JE640, JB640. In the *70 family: JE470, JE770. In the *80 family: JE480, JE780, JB980. JB machines are better built than the JE's. Better than the JB980 are the JA's: JA33ES, JA555ES and JA333ES. Avoid Hi-MD. Hi-MD will not play in your car unit.

MD formats are named ATRAC and ATRAC3. ATRAC formats (SP and MONO) are the oldest. They are recorded/played by the MDS-JE520. ATRAC3 formats are more recent. They cannot be recorded/played by the MDS-JE520. In the expression ATRAC 4.5, 4.5 is a version of the ATRAC format. All ATRAC versions are compatible. Type R/Type S (equivalent for SP) are the most recent versions of recording algorithms that create ATRAC tracks.

The MDS-JE520 does perfect MONO recordings.