Recording Classical Piano

[andrewhall]

Hi, I've found some threads which talk about recording piano but to ask the question directly.

I am planning to buy a Sony NH 900 (hope I got that right, HiMd) and want to record my partner who plays superb classical piano. I have a Sony ecm ms957 mike. Is this an ok mike for the intended use. I find one of the more important requirements is being able to handle the silences as much as the loud bits, background hiss kills a recording.

I also want to record my own guitar playing (acoustic) and singing but I guess that anything that can handle the piano will do fine with the guitar.

Related questions- what about mike leads - do they need to be short or are long ones better to get the HiMd, the piano and the mike well separated.

Also, is recording straight into the HiMD OK or would I be much better to use a preamp of some sort?

Sorry about the kitchen sink range of questions, I've been using an old DAT recorder for a while taking the mike direct but it is pretty worn out and I am not happy with the quality (part of the problem being my sound card) - wanting to aim for semething the really works this time. My objective CD quality recording.

Andrew

[Christopher]

Welcome, Andrew. Read this for me real quick: http://forums.minidisc.org/viewtopic.php?t=5799

[Reactive]

Microphone location is often missed in these discussions. I have had some experience with my own acoustic piano, and depending on where you mount the mic's you can get a fantastic recording, or a really dismal recording.

After numerous attempts to capture the magic of the instrument, I settled for a Stereo mic set up, one placed on the kick board (with tape) and the other just inside the the baffle that hides the string array. With this set up I was able to capture the harmonics and over tones, as they often ring long after the keys are pressed, and more importantly the silence between passages.

I don't have that piano anymore, but I often listen the the few recordings I made, and now I miss it .

There is a beautiful, mystical sound that is hard to describe in words that comes out of a 100 yr old piano. I replaced it with a Kawai digital piano (so I could play without disturbing others), it's completly portable, but lacks the 800lb wamrth of the acoustic model.

These days I am looking for a new instrument to play, I'm thinking a flute. Anyone out there that can spare a few mintues on the subject?

[andrewhall]

Thanks Kuriso (and Reactive) - I did read that thread last night :-) , and also another thread from a singer who used piano backing - which did discuss mike placement as well though coming to different conclusions, but thought it might be worth asking a direct question for my specific situation... and then there's the kitchen sink I threw in at the end.

Yeh for clasical a digital piano doesn't come close really, my partner has a Kawai grand she has trucked round with her for the last 25 years - all over Australia and New Zealand.

Andrew

[A440]

I actually played flute for many years, and if I had it to do over again I would choose another instrument.

The flute's advantages are that it's portable, intuitive and does really discipline your breathing. But it has a very limited timbral range--basically a sine wave that you can vary slightly with vibrato or breath--and if you're playing classical music, there's not much of a repertory.

How about violin? The learning curve is steeper, but the repertory and expressive possibilities are exponentially larger, not to mention the countless traditions--from Cajun to Arabic to gypsy--that have their own fiddle styles.

And if you're looking for a wind instrument for improvising, saxophone is king for good reasons: flexibility and gutsiness.

[engramic]

Have you considered shakuhachi, the Japanese bamboo flute? Beautiful sound and very interesting music. I have been playing for several years.

[bjsilva]

Hi, I've found some threads which talk about recording piano but to ask the question directly....

Hi Andrew, just a reply on microphone placement, which is very important:

I spent many years trying to find the best place to mic a piano for classical music, speaking to recording engineers and lots of trial and error testing, mostly error! I finally found the solution in one of my own "trial" recordings 4 years ago and later read an interview with a recording engineer who I think does some of London/Decca's recordings.

Depending on your room, draw an imaginary line with the angle of the plate where the inner part of the bass strings are to a minimum of 5' past the end of the piano. Place the mic so it angles down toward the middle of the piano, perhaps a minimum of 10" above the lid of the piano. A stereo mic or pair aligned in a stereo position are ideal. Again, the room and your desired "flavour" defines the specifics.

For whatever reason, I am constantly surprised how this produces the most natural and pleasing sound. My best recordings have been mic'd this way.

[andrewhall]

Thanks a lot for that bjsilva, very helpful, I will try it. The room we use is a small hall, good sound but a little too resonant / echoey. I bought my HiMD today, NH700 - I am very pleased with the quality of my initial tests.

Andrew

PS John, would you mind explaining that bit about the plate for the base strings and the imaginary line again I am having trouble working out what exactly you mean. Thanks :-)

[linzq]

Reactive:

As a university-trained musician, I've had to take multiple instrument courses... (I'm a singer first and foremost). The flute was what I played in high school, and I too wish that I had chosen something else... As soon as I started playing trumpet in university, I was hooked. But then I started clarinet, and forgot all about the trumpet.

I think you should find an instrument that you love the sound of -- you won't practice flute if what you really love to listen to is tuba, for example... I've always loved the sound of the oboe, so I'd be more likely to enjoy listening to it while practicing scales, etc.

I think the learning curve on clarinet/trumpet is quite quick -- you can make decent sounds quite soon, whereas string insturments take a while before you sound like you're not skinning cats.

But if I had to do it all over again? I'd pick cello.

[bjsilva]

John, would you mind explaining that bit about the plate for the base strings and the imaginary line again I am having trouble working out what exactly you mean. Thanks :-)

←

Surely. If you're at the keyboard and look at the plate (the big metal thing in the piano ) and find the highest pitched bass strings, to the right of that is usually some kind of beam in the plate for strength. If you follow that beam (actually, the highest bass string will usually be ok too) out the back end of the piano, with an imaginary straight line, that is what I mean.

Does that make sense?

If you're recording an upright then you're on your own

[zerodB]

Reactive:

I think the learning curve on clarinet/trumpet is quite quick -- you can make decent sounds quite soon, whereas string insturments take a while before you sound like you're not skinning cats.

True - it's quick to start producing decent sounds and playing pieces, but as with any instrument, real mastery takes years of dedicated work. Despite having a diploma in performance on clarinet, striving to produce a full, round, and centred tone is still an ongoing thing for me.

As for the microphone placements, is a "Decca Tree" a useful arrangement for recording solo acoustic classical instruments. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't this method best exploit the acoustics of whatever room you're using?

[andrewhall]

As an update I've ordered a pair of auris mikes from Reactive Sounds (great customer support), can't wait to try it out, maybe I will post some recordings once they come in and we've worked out how to get a good sound from them..

Andrew

[mgdimo]

As an update I've ordered a pair of auris mikes from Reactive Sounds (great customer support), can't wait to try it out, maybe I will post some recordings once they come in and we've worked out how to get a good sound from them..

Andrew

←

Good luck w/ your Auris microphones! I'm a proud and very satisfied user.

I can't help but to mention the Radio Shack volume attenuator as a potential "middle ground" buffer for your setup. Here's what I mean...

You might (and I emphasize MIGHT) find that for your recording situations, your auris-->himd combo picks up sound TOO well! I found that on "Standard" and "High Sens" w/ my nh900 some sounds would distort a bit because these settings w/ my auris are just so sensitive. But, with other combinations of "loud music" and/or "low sens" I'd felt like I was losing out on some of the magic of the moment--no distortion, but also less intensity to the recording. The RS vol. att. allows me to stay "standard/high sens" so I can get intense sound reproduction while flying within that distortion envelope. Again, your recording circumstances determine what's needed and what's not.

...just a thought.

Granted, if you go to record stuff louder than acoustic piano, guitar, etc, then you do enter the battery box/preamp realm. An inve$tment that rivals your very microphones themselves.

Anyway, for more on that volume attenuator, check the following thread. I know it's long, but DAMN there's a lot of good info in there:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=5908&st=0

Also:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=7106

For under ten bucks, ya hafta at least give it a try.