First Recordings Made..need Some Assistance!

[deadwing]

Hi folks -first post on here. I'm in the UK, and I've just bought my first MD -a Sony MZ-NH1-it's main-well only-use will be to record live music, and yes, some of it will have to be in 'stealth' mode . I'm by no means a 'technophobe' and am pretty good at following instructions, but this is all brand new to me, so please excuse anything I say which sounds dumb or blindingly obvious!

OK, I've mentioned the MD recorder-now onto the mic. On the basis of some recommendations from people i know, I picked up this microphone

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=5764315179

Using it on basic voice recording gives excellent results, as it does if record music from my hi fi speakers, but tonight the set up got it's first 'live test'.

First off, I never expected to make a 'perfect' recording of the show i went to tonight-tonight was purely for 'experimentation only!

Right, the settings on the recorder. I used 'Sens Low' for the mic setting and on the MIC AGC setting i used 'Loud Music' . Now I know that the recorder does have a manual record setting, but a combination of my fat fingers, my 'nwness' to the controls and menus and the fact that I was using 'stealth mode' recording meant changing 'on the fly' was not really on the cards tonight.

The venue was a small bar (and I mean small-even in British pub terms!), the band were an Eagles tribute band, and weren't particularly loud, but their sound filled the place and was quite a good to the ear.

First part of the set was a disaster as the mic had pushed out of the socket, so, on checking during the break, all I got was 30 minutes of silence. So I removed the remote unit to stop this and tried again-this time, I did get a recording.

There is a short, 30 second mp3 of a section of the recording here (I recorded in PCM format)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/barneystorm/clip1.mp3

Not to put it too finely-it’s a mess!! Not entirely unexpected, but I do need to sort out some issues-hopefully with your help.

The first thing that jumps out at me is..VOLUME..or too much of it-but what I need to know is does it go further than that? The majority of the distortion seems to be on the bass and percussive beats, so other than whacking the recording way down, what else do I need to do?

So, let me leave it here for now, feel free to shake your head, tut loudly and mutter ‘b***dy newbie’, but I await your constructive advice to make me a better person!

[A440]

Ah, "The Boys of Summer."

You are experiencing preamp overload: bass notes through a sensitive microphone are too much for the MD's built-in mic preamp to handle. Even recording at low volume, the bass will still overload the preamp.

But don't panic.

I don't know if you have Radio Shack in England, but what you need is an attenuator: the Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control (see my avatar) or equivalent.

There's more here, look under Music.

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showt...993entry49993

And even with stubby fingers, you really need to use Manual Volume as mentioned in the FAQ, or you will have very unhappy experiences with drum sounds. It's annoying, but it is worth it.

You can hear some live recordings, with binaural mics like yours, at the Yahoo mailbox livefrommd , password 1minidisc1 .

[deadwing]

Hi..and many thanks for your reply.

No, we don't have Radio Shack here in the UK-we used to have chain called Tandy who either were their UK arm or they sold a lot of Radio Shack product, but i don't think they are around any more (Their website directs you to Amazon.co.uk)

I assume the Rado Shack item you refer to is this one?

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cata...ct%5Fid=42-2559

I further assume that this sits in between the mic and the recorder and 'cuts out' the noise which was giving me the problems last night, right?

We have a similar type of store to Radio Shack here called Maplins

http://www.maplin.co.uk

I pretty much guessed i'd have to use the manual recording setting- not too much of a problem it's just a shame it's buried under so many button presses and you have to re-set it each time you stop the player....oh well, i'll just put my fingers on a diet!!

Right off to check those recordings you mentioned...

[A440]

That's the item. With the volume control all the way up it somehow lowers the signal just enough to keep the preamp from overloading.

It's not made for the purpose, and it's flimsy so you should get a spare if they're hard to find. Sooner or later it will start adding static crackle, lose a channel, etc., at which point you can only toss it out and start with a new one.

The settings I use at a rock concert, with microphones similar to yours, are:

Low Sensitivity

Manual Volume 20/30 (look at the level indicator and see that it's registering between the two little dashes and adjust if necessary, but don't be fiddling with it all through the show or you'll hear it)

On manual volume, AGC and Standard/Loud Music are overridden.

A more theoretically elegant solution is to get a battery box or battery box/preamp and run through Line-In. But this is more portable, and it works.

[deadwing]

right..looks like I'll be onto a friend in the US to pick me a couple of these up, unless I can find them in the UK or on ebay, but could you just take a look at this item, and see if it looks like it will do a similar kind of job? It looks like it does to me, but I could be wrong

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?Module...ldID=6&doy=17m4

[A440]

It looks like it's supposed to do the same thing. Whether it's actually the same resistance as the RS version is impossible to tell. But if you can spare 2.99 for research, it would be great to get one and try it. Hell, you can always use it later as a ...headphone volume control.

[deadwing]

Right..managed to track one of these Maplins headphone volume attenuator thingys.

I'm open to any suggestions on how I can test this in a 'non live music' situation, but here is what i've done so far-plugged the unit into the mic socket, and the mic into the other end of the unit.

Put the TV on to higher than normal volume, then turned the volume on the attenuator all the way up, pressed pause/record on the player, went into the sndrec menu , changed to manual and set it to around 22. Started the recording, and just to be sure the volume on the attenuator was the right way around, I slowly turned the volume wheel down and then back up.

When i played back the recording, it was pretty quiet but clear, and it did fade to nothing, then back in again at the points where I messed with the attenuator volume.

So it seems to work- I could do with trying it on some live music to give it a real test though , but it looks like it's 'Debut' will be at ashow I REALLY want to make a good recording of on Friday night-looks like i'll have to record the support band to check I'm doing the right thing!

Another really good thing about the lead is that the volume controller is right at the end and has a kind of tie-clip type thing on it, ideal for my mic as it fits straight into that!

[A440]

Right..managed to track one of these Maplins headphone volume attenuator thingys.

←

If it's coming through, then that sounds very promising. I suggest leaving the volume all the way up on the attenuator and doing any volume adjustments with the MD control if need be--the little volume control could get staticky. But if your TV is coming through clearly then a loud show should also come through.

[deadwing]

I'll report back at the weekend with the results

Many thanks

[deadwing]

Right..

with last weeks lessons in mind, I tried again last night.

MUCH better results. unfortunately, we didn't get there early enough to do a 'test run' on the support band, but, I set the manual recording level to 19-I think if i'd gone down two more notches, I'd have been perfect! That said, the distortion is minimal really, and it EQ's up quite well too (This sample is as it was recorded, no EQ on it).

so a big thanks for all your help and tips-looks like that £2.99 i spent at Maplins was very worthwhile!!

kinosample.mp3

[A440]

I'm having trouble downloading the sample, but your report sounds very encouraging.

The Maplins attentuator may well have different resistance from the Radio Shack version--it may be attenuating a little less-- so tinker with your settings next time around and see what you come up with. If you can, report back here so that UK users can follow your advice.

Getting something listenable is the first step, so congratulations.

[Christopher]

I'm having trouble downloading the sample, but your report sounds very encouraging.

←

Try right clicking and saving it. Either way worked for me, just for the record.

[deadwing]

you can here a full song from the recording (in mp3) here

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/barneystorm/Kino/Kino0105.mp3

A couple of other question-When I transfer to my PC by USB, the process is VERY slow -almost real time (87 minutes took about 75 minutes)-is there something i'm missing in my settings somewhere to speed this up? Also, when i have transferred it, it downloads as an openMG Audio file. I recorded in PCM format, so i didn'texpect to have to run a conversion, I thought it would have opened up as a PCM/wav file in my sound editor(Sound forge), but it won't. When I then run the Sony file conversion tool, it says files in PCM format do not need converting. However, i've used a program called 'HiMD Renderer Win' and that quickly produces a .wav file from the openMG audio file. Am I missing something here? I assume the HiMD Renderer program is not converting the files (It seems to work far too quickly for that), so what is actualy doing

Edited April 25, 2005 by deadwing

[greenmachine]

Good effort, it's not too distorted anymore - now try to concentrate on recording in real stereo, it sounds almost monophonic...

[deadwing]

Good effort, it's not too distorted anymore - now try to concentrate on recording in real stereo, it sounds almost monophonic...

←

eh??? Tell me more-using a stereo microphone-but how are you supposed to get any real stereo separation at gig using mics?

Edited April 25, 2005 by deadwing

[A440]

The site itself was slow when I tried to download before, it's working fine now. I think dropping the Manual Volume a few notches would have been ideal because the bass and bass drums are still fuzzing out, but you're clearly on the right track.

The way to get better stereo is to separate the mics further. Each of your ears gets slightly different information that lets your brain build a 3D image. If the mics are right next to each other, they're getting the same information.

Looking at the photo, that mic tries to have some separation but is limited by its size. Getting the mics even a few more inches apart, like the width of your ears, will give a much rounder sound. If the mics unplug from that Y-connector, you could get two extension cords and run them from mics to Y-plug. Clip the mics to eyeglasses frames, a hat, your shoulders, a shirt collar, etc., and it will open up the stereo image.

Also, if you know someone who's good with a soldering iron, you could also have them wire the two mic leads from the extension cords into a smaller stereo miniplug. That big Y adapter works like a lever inside your mic jack if it gets pushed in any direction, and will make your mic jack wear out sooner.

PCM uploading is slow--the main bottleneck is the USB 1.0 connection from the MD, along with your computer's processing speed, because you're sending a lot of information as PCM. No real solution that I know of except to have your computer do as little other processing as possible while you upload.

What version of SonicStage are you using? If you upgrade to 3.x, it will have a built-in .wav converter and you won't have to worry about it once you've done the upload.

Of course it should just be drag-and-drop from MD as data drive to Soundforge, without the whole .oma intermediate stage. But Sony doesn't think so....

[greenmachine]

The way to get better stereo is to separate the mics further. Each of your ears gets slightly different information that lets your brain build a 3D image. If the mics are right next to each other, they're getting the same information.

Looking at the photo, that mic tries to have some separation but is limited by its size. Getting the mics even a few more inches apart, like the width of your ears, will give a much rounder sound. If the mics unplug from that Y-connector, you could get two extension cords and run them from mics to Y-plug. Clip the mics to eyeglasses frames, a hat, your shoulders, a shirt collar, etc., and it will open up the stereo image.

Besides from separating the microphones physically it makes a huge difference if there's an object (like your head, a dummy head, books, a carton, just about anything) between them to prevent soundwaves coming from one side hitting the microphone on the other side directly. It separates the channels even more. (Maybe someone can provide a link for a more technical explanation.)

[deadwing]

The site itself was slow when I tried to download before, it's working fine now. I think dropping the Manual Volume a few notches would have been ideal because the bass and bass drums are  still fuzzing out, but you're clearly on the right track.

The way to get better stereo is to separate the mics further. Each of your ears gets slightly different information that lets your brain build a 3D image. If the mics are right next to each other, they're getting the same information.

Looking at the photo, that mic tries to have some separation but is limited by its size. Getting the mics even a few more inches apart, like the width of your ears, will give  a much rounder sound. If the mics unplug from that Y-connector, you could get two extension cords and run them from mics to Y-plug. Clip the mics to eyeglasses frames, a hat, your shoulders, a shirt collar, etc., and it will open up the stereo image.

Also, if you know someone who's good with a soldering iron, you could also have them wire the two mic leads from the extension cords into a smaller stereo miniplug. That big Y adapter works like a lever inside your mic jack if it gets pushed in any direction, and will make your mic jack wear out sooner.

PCM uploading is slow--the main bottleneck is the USB 1.0 connection from the MD, along with your computer's processing speed,  because you're sending a lot of information as PCM. No real solution that I know of  except to have your computer do as little other processing as possible while you upload.

What version of SonicStage are you using? If you upgrade to 3.x, it will have a built-in .wav converter and you won't have to worry about it once you've done the upload.

Of course it should just be drag-and-drop from MD as data drive to Soundforge, without the whole .oma intermediate stage.  But Sony doesn't think so....

←

I don't think the mics unplug, and as I'm not good with a soldering iron, i'm not going to attempt to pull it apart. Now I'm using that attenuator lead, the mic isn't plugging directly into the MD, so it's not going to be giving the mic socket any problems

I understand the baiscs of what/how stereo works, but I'm still rather sceptical about getting more 'stereo separation' at a gig when the noise is coming straight at you as it does. Surely, unless you can get a mixed stereo feed, it's always going to 'bi-aural mono'?

I'm on v2.1 of sonic stage-i'll take a look for an update on the sony site

[greenmachine]

I don't think the mics unplug, and as I'm not good with a soldering iron, i'm not going to attempt to pull it apart.

An excerpt from your provided link:

Plugable Left & Right channel Angled Pro Nickel Microphones enable extension cable use for different stereo recording situations.

Unplug one angled microphone and use it for mono recording on both channels

on your minidisc or laptop.

If you can't separate them, I wouldn't destroy the construction by disassembling it, rather look for different microphones since good ones are not too expensive nowadays.

I understand the baiscs of what/how stereo works, but I'm still rather sceptical about getting more 'stereo separation' at a gig when the noise is  coming straight at you as it does.

It's up to you if you want a realistic, the room acoustics involving sound or just directly the noise source. For the first I'd use a binaural omnidirectional construction, for the latter a mono cardioid microphone directing straight at the source. Personally, I clearly prefer the first method for recording music.

Surely, unless you can get a mixed stereo feed, it's always going to 'bi-aural mono'?

What's the definition of stereo? Isn't it basically a source signal with room information?

Edited April 25, 2005 by greenmachine

[deadwing]

It's up to you if you want a realistic, the room acoustics involving sound or just directly the noise source. For the first I'd use a binaural omnidirectional construction, for the latter a mono cardioid microphone directing straight at the source. Personally, I clearly prefer the first method for recording music.

What's the definition of stereo? Isn't it basically a source signal with room information?

←

My understanding of the word stereo is when the sounds are specifically mixed to give a seperation of sounds to give a perception of depth. With the way he sound at a show hits you, it has no stereo seperation-you may get certain sounds louder on one side of the room to another, but that isn't 'real' stereo.

I've spoken to a lot of 'Stealth' tapers who use mini disc, and they record in Mono to enable them to get longer record time on the disc to save the (potentially life threatening!) problem of swapping discs mid show. Then then just create a stereo field from the mono source -with HiMD discs, that's not really necessary because of the extra storage space

[greenmachine]

I've spoken to a lot of 'Stealth' tapers who use mini disc, and they record in Mono to enable them to get  longer record time on the disc to save the (potentially life threatening!) problem of swapping discs mid show. Then then just create a stereo field from the mono source

What an AwFuL idea! The mono signal already contains a lot of room information, echoes, coloring of the sound if you're recording in a room (what's pretty much always the case). Giving it additional artificial room information would just make a mess of the recording. It would work with a direct signal, like a voice directly into a very close microphone, or artificially created sounds from synthesizers though.

[greenmachine]

My understanding of the word stereo is when the sounds are specifically mixed to give a seperation of sounds to give a perception of depth.

perception of depth = room information

With the way he sound at a show hits you, it has no stereo seperation-you may get certain sounds louder on one side of the room to another, but that isn't 'real' stereo.

It's not just about differences in volume, there's also phase and other information i can't think of at the moment.

[A440]

I should have realized that the attenuator was giving you a less lever-ed connection, sorry about that. Looking at the picture got me worried.

Phase information is important, but all the technical blather in the world won't convince you as much as an experiment.

If you record in mono and listen through headphones you'll get a one-dimensional sound in the middle of your head.

If you record in stereo with a one-point mic, essentially what you're doing now, you'll get a slightly expanded one-dimensional sound--richer than mono, but still constricted.

If you separate the mics by six inches or more, with or without a barrier in between them (google "Jecklin disc" if you want to read the tech discussions), you'll feel like you're in the room.

Set your stereo to mono and try separated and un-separated. I couldn't believe it either at first, but I'm convinced.

The only reason for recording in mono on minidisc was to maintain stealth in the old days by conserving the disc space, and while it may have made for an irreplaceable document of the show, it wasn't exactly fun listening. Even with a mono mix through the PA, you're getting spatial information from the amps onstage, from the drum kit, and from all the resonances of the room.

Really, try it if you can separate those mics. And definitely move on up from SS 2.1 . Sonic Stage was a disgrace before 2.3, and 3.0 is within hailing distance of actually being useful.

[deadwing]

perception of depth = room information

It's not just about differences in volume, there's also phase and other information i can't think of at the moment.

←

But with most concerts-especially loud rock music concerts, there is no real 'perception of depth', it's more of a wall of noise.

[greenmachine]

Sorry, I have to disagree again, even at loud rock music concerts, there can be a real perception of depth, the wall of noise you're experiencing could be caused from overloading your ears, I've did some recordings at a very loud rock concert recently. While being there, it indeed sounded pretty much like a mess, but after rehearing it at home, it sounds very clear, because it's not played back at such a brutal volume anymore. All I can suggest is to protect your valuable hearing. You can listen to some samples here.

[deadwing]

I should have realized that the attenuator was giving you a less lever-ed connection, sorry about that. Looking at the picture got me worried.

Phase information is important, but all the technical blather in the world won't convince you as much as an experiment.

If you record in mono and listen through headphones you'll get a one-dimensional sound in the middle of your head.

If you record in stereo with a one-point mic, essentially what you're doing now,  you'll get a slightly expanded one-dimensional sound--richer than mono, but still constricted.

If you separate the mics by six inches or more, with or without a barrier in between them (google "Jecklin disc" if you want to read the tech discussions), you'll feel like you're in the room.

Set your stereo to mono and try separated and un-separated. I couldn't believe it either at first, but I'm convinced.

The only reason for recording in mono on minidisc was to maintain stealth in the old days by conserving the disc space, and while it may have made for an irreplaceable document of the show, it wasn't exactly fun listening. Even with a mono mix through the PA, you're getting spatial information from the amps onstage, from the drum kit, and from all the resonances of the room.

Really, try it if you can separate those mics. And definitely move on up from SS 2.1 . Sonic Stage was a disgrace before 2.3, and 3.0 is within hailing distance of actually being useful.

←

Thanks for all of that..Just realised my last few messages on the subject of mono/stereo might have sounded like a '2 week-know-know-it-all' that wasn't my intentions at all,and i'll certainly give it a go-it just seemed to me that, with the volume you get at a loud gig (and all the ones I go to had better be LOUD!!), the nuances you and greenmachine talk about would be lost because of the 'Wall Of Noise' effect.

Anyway, moving this on...I've just taken a look at the mic, and blow me, I see now that the actual mics do remove from the body! I got a warning with the mic that it hould not be 'dismantled' as the wiring inside is very tight-I didn't realise that each of the two actual 'L' shaped mic pieces were just on mini jack plug in sockets!! So, I guess the answer is to run a couple of extension leads off the body, and plug the actual mic parts into them to give seperation. The problem then comes that you start being a mass of trailing wires- firstly the remote conrol unit, then the attenuator, then two more wires coming from there..stealthing them, while possible, would be a bit more difficult.

Edited April 25, 2005 by deadwing

[deadwing]

Sorry, I have to disagree again, even at loud rock music concerts, there can be a real perception of depth, the wall of noise you're experiencing could be caused from overloading your ears, I've did some recordings at a very loud rock concert recently. While being there, it indeed sounded pretty much like a mess, but after rehearing it at home, it sounds very clear, because it's not played back at such a brutal volume anymore. All I can suggest is to protect your valuable hearing. You can listen to some samples here.

←

Thanks for that- I think my 'Good' hearing went west many years ago, thanks to having my head stuck in too many bass bins as a kid!!

I do understand what you are saying about ears being overloaded, but wouldn't the same thing apply to the microphones as well-they are only picking up the same inormation as your ears, after all?

[greenmachine]

oops, double post

Edited April 26, 2005 by greenmachine

[greenmachine]

I do understand what you are saying about ears being overloaded, but wouldn't the same thing apply to the microphones as well-they are only picking up the same inofrmation as your ears, after all?

It could, but there are microphones which can handle much higher SPL's with virtually no distortion than your ears are able to.

The problem then comes that you start being a mass of trailing wires- firstly the remote conrol unit, then the attenuator, then two more wires coming from there..stealthing them, while possible, would be a bit more difficult.

Hehe, making a record is easy, making a good one can be a little bit more tricky, but it's well worth it in most cases...

[A440]

Microphones have different specs than your ears. Turning down the volume on loud music can indeed reveal sonic nuances.

Microphones do overload too--they have maximum sound pressure levels in their specs--but your initial problem was that your mic preamp was overloading, and I hope that the distortion you got on your second recording was still preamp overload rather than the mics themselves overloading.

If it was the mics overloading, and you're going to be going to a lot of loud shows, then you could use the more electronically correct alternative to the attenuator: running the mics through a battery box, which gives them added power to handle more sound, and then through Line-In. But that's one more cigarette-pack-sized box to add to your stealth problems. An easier solution: stand further back from the stage.

Is the NH1 remote helping you in the recording situation? Does it have a level readout on it or a way of making track marks? I've got the NHF-800, with a different remote, and I do all my controlling on the machine itself. If it's not useful, you could leave the remote home.

As for your mics, they should go mics--extension leads--Y-plug--attenuator--Mic-In. I hide mic wires down my shirtfront and clip the mics to my collar, then run the lead out along my belt loops to the MD in a pocket.

[greenmachine]

Thanks for that- I think my 'Good' hearing went west many years ago, thanks to having my head stuck in too many bass bins as a kid!!

Hehe, it's the loud high-frequencies which are the most dangerous for your hearing abilities, not really the bass...

[greenmachine]

Microphones do overload too--they have maximum sound pressure levels in their specs--but your initial problem was that your mic preamp was overloading, and I hope that the distortion you got on your second recording was still preamp overload rather than the mics themselves overloading.

If it was the mics overloading, and you're going to be going to a lot of loud shows, then you could use the more electronically correct alternative to the attenuator: running the mics through a battery box, which gives them added power to handle more sound, and then through Line-In. But that's one more cigarette-pack-sized box to add to your stealth problems. An easier solution: stand further back from the stage.

I'm going to very loud shows too, and the attenuator reduced the distortion to some degree by relieving the preamp from loud input, but then the microphones themself were still overloaded and I still had bad distortion, so I had to build a battery box and from that point it worked beautifully. The attenuator may be suited for a little bit louder than usual sounds, but not for noise earthquakes...

I don't think standing further back from the stage in a rather small to medium room with lots of bass helps a lot, if at all...

Edited April 26, 2005 by greenmachine

[greenmachine]

There's one more problem with the attenuator: You better have to use it exclusively in max. position, or you'll risk to reduce the already low voltage supplied from the recorder to the mics, depending on how the potis are connected.

[deadwing]

Microphones have different specs than your ears. Turning down the volume on loud music can indeed reveal sonic nuances.

Microphones do overload too--they have maximum sound pressure levels in their specs--but your initial problem was that your mic preamp was overloading, and I hope that the distortion you got on your second recording was still preamp overload rather than the mics themselves overloading.

I think you are right on that, being so close on the second recording would indicate thats the most likely scenario-Trouble is, i've got no more shows for a while now, so I'll have to do another pub gig to test things out!!

If it was the mics overloading, and you're going to be going to a lot of loud shows, then you could use the more electronically correct alternative to the attenuator: running the mics through a battery box, which gives them added power to handle more sound, and then through Line-In. But that's one more cigarette-pack-sized box to add to your stealth problems. An easier solution: stand further back from the stage.

I tend to stand as far back as possible as it is-at the show last week, I stood directly in front of the mixing desk which was on the back wall of the venue. The two main reasons for going with this model of MD was the ability to record in PCM audio and not having to muck around with a battery box.

Is the NH1 remote helping you in the recording situation? Does it have a level readout on it or a way of making track marks? I've got the NHF-800, with a different remote, and I do all my controlling on the machine itself. If it's not useful, you could leave the remote home.

I find it useful for setting the levels, yes. The recorder itself has a single line readout which is not backlit and is impossible to read in dark conditions . That said, if i set the levels before the band come on stage (which I did last week), and leave the machine in pause (Does that do any damage? I know you shouldn't leave tape decks on pause for too long) then I could disconnect the remote, but it's also handy for checking disctime remaining-especially as I'm recoding in PCM mode.

As for your mics, they should go mics--extension leads--Y-plug--attenuator--Mic-In. I hide mic wires down my shirtfront and clip the mics to my collar, then run the lead out along my belt loops to the MD in a pocket.

←

wow, it's like being a spy, isn't it!! My only concerns with this would be the number of connections you are relying on not becoming disconnected. I know the mini jacks have a nice 'snap' connection, but that's four individual connections to make. I'll take a trip to Maplins tomorrow to grab a couple of extension leads with clips on them.

[deadwing]

I'm going to very loud shows too, and the attenuator reduced the distortion to some degree by relieving the preamp from loud input, but then the microphones themself were still overloaded and I still had bad distortion, so I had to build a battery box and from that point it worked beautifully. The attenuator may be suited for a little bit louder than usual sounds, but not for noise earthquakes...

←

When you listen to the recording i made last week, would you say your 'bad distortion' was more of a problem than that? The show last week was pretty loud, and was in quite a small venue (Maybe 500 people) and most of the shows I go to are in that kind of venue.

One other thing I was thinking about..on volume levels...would I be better dropping right down to, say 9 or 10 and having a quieter level and then boost that after transferring to the PC?

[greenmachine]

That said, if i set the levels before the band come on stage (which I did last week), and leave the machine in pause (Does that do any damage? I know you shouldn't leave tape decks on pause for too long)

It shouldn't do any damage but draining some battery power, i believe earlier md units were spinning the disc while in pause mode, nowadays they don't, at least the newer sony's.

[greenmachine]

When you listen to  the recording i made last week, would you say your 'bad distortion' was more of a problem than that? The show last week was pretty loud, and was in quite a small venue (Maybe 500 people) and most of the shows I go to are in that kind of venue.

I'd say they're both pretty bad and close to unenjoyable, although I generally perceive the distortion caused by an overloaded mic not as aggressive as a clipping preamp, but listen for yourself...

It's difficult to get a distortion-free recording in such environments (small room + loud PA) without a battery box, but I've propably exposed myself and the equipment to even higher SPL's than you did and for that reason didn't succeed with an attenuator...

One other thing I was thinking about..on volume levels...would I be better dropping right down to, say 9 or 10 and having a quieter level and then boost that after transferring to the PC?

Ideally as high as possible without hitting the max, but better somewhat below than above.

But if you'll get too low, you'll experience increased noise after 'boosting' the level afterwards (normalizing), at least with direct microphone to line-in recording - it works for using the built-in mic preamp with a fixed/selectable gain (low/high sensitivity) though. In my experience it made no sense to go below approx. level 10 when using the built-in mic preamp though, the distortion couldn't be reduced any further below that level setting. By getting higher than that level, you just limit the dynamic range by raising both the input signal together with the noise floor. Of course this point depends on your mic specifications.

When using the built-in mic preamp, you can try to find that 'sweet spot' by exposing the mic to a high continuous SPL so that there's just a slight distortion with a rather low recording level setting (anything below 9 or so should work), then raise the level until it starts to distort even more. You can use the the highest level setting before the increased distortion starts to happen for a convenient universal recording level and amplify it afterwards without significant side-effects. Basically it means to use the limited gear effectively. I would use higher levels only if I knew for sure the source has a strongly limited dynamic range or if I had no possibility to normalize it afterwards or if i couldn't upload the material digitally.

The qualitywise best solution would be of course a good mic preamp with adjustable gain plugged into the line in, but I couldn't find an affordable yet.

Edited April 26, 2005 by greenmachine

[A440]

My only concerns with this would be the number of connections you are relying on not becoming disconnected.

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I hate to say it, but you could also start from scratch again with new mics. The ones you have are very cumbersome with the L-shaped enclosures and the Y-plug adapter. The Sound Professionals BMC-2's (www.soundprofessionals.com) are probably made with the same basic microphone capsules, but they're tiny and on a thin stereo lead. They're around $29 U.S. plus shipping, from the company itself or sold by the company on Ebay. You could put your current mics back on Ebay, and with the exchange rate, the new ones wouldn't set you back too much.

I use them and while I have overloaded them at a few shows, it wasn't easy to do. Most of the time the attenuator is enough (at full volume, as greenmachine says). Maybe you lads play louder in England.

[deadwing]

I hate to say it, but you could also start from scratch again with new mics. The ones you have are very cumbersome with the L-shaped enclosures and the Y-plug adapter. The Sound Professionals BMC-2's (www.soundprofessionals.com) are probably made with the same basic microphone capsules, but they're tiny and on a thin stereo lead. They're around $29 U.S. plus shipping, from the company itself or sold by the company on Ebay. You could put your current mics back on Ebay, and with the exchange rate, the new ones  wouldn't set you back too much. 

Just looked on ebay and couldn't find anything being sold by Sound Profssionals at all, though I did find these which looked pretty similar?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...ssPageName=WDVW

sound profesionals website want $40 plus $10 for clips and then carriage

Thing is, the L shape of the mic - what you describe as 'cumbersome' - is actually an advantage with the jacket I am going to use as my 'Stealth Jacket'! It's got two top pockets with a kind of button hole in each one, which means the mic would just protrude a tiny bit from each. That said, I'd certainly consider getting another set of mics if they make things easier or better, but I'm convinced that on the next recording I make, if I drop the volume level to 15 or 16, I'm going to get pretty good results (To be honest, I was surprised how well the recording came out at the weekend-I expected several failurs before I got to that point!).

I picked up some mini jack extensions today-Only had a chance so far to try the separation on recording from a home Hi Fi- I recorded the same thing with the mic in the original holder (i.e. limited separation) and then a gap of about 7 or 8 inches apart-honestly can't say I notice any real difference in the recording at all-I know, it's not really the same test as a concert would give it, but as the source was actually pumping out stereo, I thought it would have been noticable.

[greenmachine]

These seem to be a very good handmade version, seems to be in the same league as some much more expensive models. I'd buy them if they didn't already have some, although i can't imagine the pain when someone is trying to clip them to his ears ...

I picked up some mini jack extensions today-Only had a chance so far to try the separation on recording from a home Hi Fi- I recorded the same thing with the mic in the original holder (i.e. limited separation) and then a gap of about 7 or 8 inches apart-honestly can't say I notice any real difference in the recording at all-I know, it's not really the same test as a concert would give it, but as the source was actually pumping out stereo, I thought it would have been noticable.

Strange, it was a huge difference for me, but as I've already said, it has an additional effect to put something between them, try to wear them near your ears for example and listen to the results through headphones afterwards.

Edited April 26, 2005 by greenmachine