Recommendations For Mics Etc

[md-max]

Hi

For a few years (until it died 5 months ago) I'd used my trusty Sharp MD recorder and a neat little mic that's shaped like a T and plugs straight into the mic socket. I've used it for recording all sorts of things - interviews, lectures, street demonstations, ambient sounds (water, birdsong etc), live concerts, my sax lessons (I'm the student, not the teacher) etc etc. The quality's always been fine. Not exceptional, but fine. And under the right circumstances, pretty darn good. I was happy. It all fitted neatly in a pocket and I could carry it all everywhere with me.

I've now got an NH900 and have been spending FAR too much time reading these forums!

What I'd like to know is what's the best way of improving my recordings. Of the things I've recorded, live music's always been the worst quality - but I'd always assumed that I couldn't improve on that.

But now it looks like I can! But how? But I'm hopelessly lost among all the omni things and cardiod things and pre-amps and bass roll-off things and - huh?

Could someone please explain nice and slowly how I can improve my recordings? I don't want to spend a fortune and I'm not going for perfection here... (and I'm in the UK, if that affects what's available) I'd just like to improve on what I can do now.

Thanks guys!

[greenmachine]

What I'd like to know is what's the best way of improving my recordings. Of the things I've recorded, live music's always been the worst quality - but I'd always assumed that I couldn't improve on that.

Could you describe what's wrong with the sound-quality of your live recordings? Did they suffer from distortion?

[md-max]

Could you describe what's wrong with the sound-quality of your live recordings? Did they suffer from distortion?

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They're kinda fuzzy and muffled. The music sounds like it's a long way away (fair enough, it generally is!...)

The other problem is that I probably don't know what I'm missing. I guess I don't really know how good a 'good' live recording can be and what it is about the recording process or equipment that's made the difference. Is it the quality of the mics? the frequency response? the lowor high end of that in particular? the physical separation of the two bits of a stereo mic? which way they are pointing? (tails off into incoherent rambling...)

Edited May 19, 2005 by md-max

[greenmachine]

All of the things you mentioned have a significant effect on the sound. Could you upload a sample? I still have only a vague image of how your recordings could sound.

[A440]

You can hear a lot of recordings in the Gallery (link at top of page).

"Muffled" suggests you aren't getting enough high end through your mic. High end adds crispness and clarity. You need a different mic.

The crucial link to a good recording is the mics. They don't have to be hugely expensive, but they do need a full-range frequency response (20-20,000 Hz). Both commercial suppliers (like www.soundprofessionals.com , www.microphonemadness.com , www.reactivesounds.com and www.core-sound.com ) and the hobbyists who sell on Ebay generally build their more affordable mics around the same basic Panasonic capsule, which you can recognize by the specs.

Frequency Response 20-20,000 Hz

Lowest note to highest note. The bottom note on a piano is 27 Hz, the top is 4186 Hz, but each octave is a doubling of frequency--that is, up to 20,000 Hz is only two more octaves. That upper register is full of overtones that color and clarify the sounds you hear.

Signal To Noise Ratio 58dB

How much noise the mic itself adds. The higher the number the better: more signal, less noise.

Open Circuit Sensitivity -42dB

The quietest sound the mic will pick up. A more sensitive mic--not always a good thing--will have a higher number (note the numbers are negative). -35dB is more sensitive than this.

Maximum Input Sound Level 105dB

How loud the sound can get before the mic can't take it any more. At this level you'd want earplugs, too. A battery box can help prevent the mic from overloading at higher levels, but most often this is sufficient. The preamp overloads before the mic.

Dynamic Range 81dB

Difference between loudest and quietest sounds the mic will transmit. A battery box also expands dynamic range.

If you buy from a recognized company, the mic capsules may be better matched (they vary) and the housings may be better built, but you can also seek out a bargain if necessary.

Ultra-cheap? Look on Ebay for "stereo lapel microphone for minidisc." It's a one-point omni that sounds pretty good if you can leave it in one place and not jostle the housing. But one-points don't give as enveloping a stereo image as your ears. Just a few inches of separation provides all kind of information that your brain decodes as a stereo image, which is why a pair of mics that you can separate is better.

Omnis are omnidirectional, hearing like your ears. Cardioids are directional, not picking up sound behind you. They're both good in different situations, but cheaper cardioids have less bass response and can sound tinny. If you're recording something that sounds good to your ears, get omnis. Even cheap ones like my Sound Professionals BMC-2's are wonderful.

For pure electronic perfection, get a good pair of mics and a preamp/battery box combination and run them through line-in. The preamp in the MD unit--a Mic-In jack means there's a preamp behind it--is good but not ideal, and this method bypasses it.

For a good-value practical and portable solution, get a good pair of mics and, for loud music, an attenuator (Maplins Headphone Volume Control, see the end of the pinned thread on Radio Shack Volume Attenuator) and run through Mic-In set to Low Sensitivity (via Rec-Set). The attenuator prevents bass from overloading the preamp, which is sensitive to bass.

Bass roll-off, as far as I'm concerned, is unnecessary or actively detrimental. It eliminates a lot of bottom end from your recordings in order to keep the preamp from overloading. But once those sounds are gone, they're gone. If you do have a bass-heavy recording, as long as it's not overloaded, you can always lower the bass later with equalization on a sound-editing program like Audacity, which is hosted on this site under Downloads, or through any playback with bass and treble or equalizer controls.

Even the best microphone is only as good as what goes into it. If the music is far away, you have to get closer. If you're in a club or out on the street, it's not going to sound like a recording studio. Decent mics will hear what your ears do--it's up to you to put them in a place where what they hear sounds best.

[The Low Volta]

still, to give a quick and dirty guide to what to watch when choosing mics (only my opinions though, you could always disagree and I could even be outright wrong ):

- Frequency Response (or Range): for music-> 20-20,000Hz (=20Hz-20kHz) (if the lower value is too high, let's say 100Hz, you will lose bass, if the upper value is too low, you will lose crisp/clean highs)

- Signal To Noise Ratio: the higher this value is, the better (means less noise when recording quieter sounds); values range from 40dB (not really good) to 80dB on real good mics... (although 60dB is already very good)

- channel balance: the difference in sensitivity between the two mic-elements in a stereo mic; values between 0.5 and 1.5dB are pretty good (the lower the better) but with home made or eBay mics these can go up till very noticable differences (4dB and higher)

- max input sound level (or something similar): the max dB the mic can handle without distortion... there could be 2 values here, one with plug-in power (like you used with your sharp) and a higher one when used with a battery box (external mic power supply)... watch out, an indoor rock show can reach extreme dB's (120+) but then an attenuator can help to avoid distortion

- omnidirectional<>cardioid: omni means records from all directions around it; cadioid only from straight in front of the mic (= unidirectional) but biggest difference is that the freq range of cardioids is often more limited...so they sound thinner/more plasticy

- mono: only one channel...avoid for music recordings!

- stereo/binaural: two channel recording... can be plain stereo which gives a slightly different sound hrough each of the channels so a sense of depth is created or binaural which actually means: 'two ears' so it is meant to record exactly the way we hear things. stereo or binaural mics are actually exactly the same, as this referres to a way of use, and not to the type or make of the mic (althoug binaural use could be made easier by allowing the mics to sit in your ears for example), for stereo: separate the mics a couple of inches and point both mics forward towards the sound source; for binaural, separate the mics with a physical separator (like your head) in between and point them sideways like your ears. for both ways to work optimally, spatial separation is needed, so unless really needed, avoid single point (i.e. both elements fixed close to each other) stereo mics.

and a couple of usefull items explained:

- battery box: an external powersource for your mics, placed inbetween the mic and the recorder (line in), that powers a mic with +/- 9V in stead of 3V (max) plug-in power, this allows the mic to handle much louder sounds and enhances the mic's overall prestations

- pre-amp:

a. in your recorder when you use mic in, gets easily overloaded and causes distortion, usefull when recording speech and quieter sounds... and where quality isn't that important you can even use the AGC (auto/audio? gain control) which adjust the volume automatically, but is crap when recording anything of importance like a concert (even though it has a 'rock music' setting), but get used to recording with manual recording levels as soon as possible

b. an external pre-amp which you place between the mic and the recorder (line in) which amplifies the output of the mics, so mostly usefull when recording (very) quiet sounds, but a lot of models double as a battery box and have a gain control (like the boostbox) and are more versatile than just as an amplifier

- radioshack volume attenuator: (very low cost and has it's own thread on MDCF, so check it out...UK verson available at Maplins) lowers the signal from the mics so the recorder pre-amp doesn't overload (placed between the mic and the recorder mic in)

- bass roll-off/cut-off: mostly an option on batt boxes and pre-amps that allows the user to roll (lower and eventually fade out) or cut (simply cut as it says) the bass-frequencies below a certain level... a lot of different types of roll-off/cut of exist and they do not all allow to choose at which frequency to cut/roll, so look into this (also a few threads on MDCF focus on bass roll-off)

this isn't a 'how can I get better recordings' guide, but it could help your search for a good mic, which at least won't disappoint you...

a few N-Am retailers (like Sound Professionals and Core Sound) carry good and low-budget stereo mics, but (for Belgium at least) import taxes and TAV (BTW) make even the low-cost quite expensive...

there is a German manufacturer (Soundman) which seems to make good mics, but I haven't heard any reviews of these yet (I'm looking into buying the OKM-II Pop/AV with A-3 adapter combo myself, but it could take a while before I can afford 'em...I'm still a poor student )

[vocals_jure]

I could make you a set of mics. They would be work alikes of core sound binaurals i could sell you a set for 75$ this includes a battery box

If youre interested just send me a private message or email my email is in my profile

this offer is for any interested users

Edited May 19, 2005 by vocals_jure

[Reactive]

Wow guys those were terrific responses! I can't add anything to this, except do practice in as many locations as you can. That means close, far, taped together, split apart, wind sheilded with an unbrella, or a piece of foam, or some panty hose. You need to fail a few times to know what works and what does not. Even a cheap microphone will give great results it you know where to locate it.

Good luck

Gerry

www.reactivesounds.com

[Christopher]

Wow guys those were terrific responses!

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I agree completely - I've been real impressed by the quality of responses in the Live Recording forum lately.

[thecool]

I'm a BRAND SPANKING NEWBIE (very first post) and i've learned something.

Thanks folks

be cool

[The Low Volta]

I'm a BRAND SPANKING NEWBIE (very first post) and i've learned something.

Thanks folks

←

welcome to the forums Coolness, that's exactly what we're all here for

greetings, Volta

[greenmachine]

Open Circuit Sensitivity  -42dB

The quietest sound the mic will pick up. A more sensitive mic--not always a good thing--will have a higher negative number. -50dB is more sensitive than this.

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Not true, -50dB is less sensitive than -42dB, while -35dB is more sensitive.

This site seems to clarify some confusion:

http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acousti...Microphones.htm

[A440]

Fixed the post above. Negative numbers scrambled my brain.

[md-max]

Wow, a flood of useful stuff while I was away from a PC for a couple of days!

Managed to identify my mic as the website I got it from is still selling them. It's a Microphone Madness MM-STM-1 so I had a look at their website and from the Panasonic specs that A440 posted, it looks like those same capsules.

Any opinions on 'next one up[better]' from that? BMC-2? I'd be interested to see how different the recordings are.

And how much difference, really, does the battery box make? It's been interesting to read the discussions on these boards about PCM vs Hi-SP vs SP and see so many people eventually saying well actually most people can't hear the difference or it's so slight that it's not worth doing your recordings the hard way!

Cheers guys - finding this really helpful!

[A440]

That's a one-point stereo mic. A pair of mics that you can separate further, like the BMC-2 or the Microphone Madness equivalent (perhaps the BSM-5), will give you a more enveloping stereo sound but with the same general response.

For the next rung up, you'd have to get different capsules, like the Audio-Technicas that Soundprofessionals uses in these:

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-BMC-12

Haven't tried them, but if you want to send me $100 I will....

I've tried battery box--line-in and to me, the results are too quiet to carry around the extra box. Other people swear by them, however.

[md-max]

Sorry, still confused - and getting more confused the more I look at all the options...

1. For 'general' use eg occasional concerts / gigs, talks, ambient (eg nature recordings) etc, is omni better than cardioid? Can't work out which I should be going for.

2. Where do you put the things? it's nice and simple with my little plug-in t-microphone - just plugs into the mic socket, sit the recorder pretty much anywhere and off it goes. But if you have little microphone capsules on the end of long bits of wire with clips on them, where do you put them?

3. And what sort of mic separation should I be going for? I remember reading something somewhere here about separating them by the distance between your ears - but is there any advantage to a bigger separation? (some seem to come with two separate cables so you can put them more than a metre apart)

4. And do we have any UK users here who could suggest what they use? I keep reading posts about things that sound good then finding that they're from the US, where everything is cheaper. Sigh.

Thanks for your patience!

[greenmachine]

1. http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=25

"From the above it can be concluded that in close miking situations, the choice of a ... omni should be seriously considered. We strongly recommend to always make a habit of trying an omni first! It will often give a more natural sound, it can handle extremely high sound pressure levels, it does not suffer from proximity effect and is not that sensitive to wind, pop or handling noise!"

2. I've recently built this (using heat shrinkable tubing and omnidirectional microphones):

3. Read this http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=131 and experiment a lot to see what works best for you.

4. I'm not from the UK, sorry

[The Low Volta]

1. I'd go for omni too

2. there are a lot of ideas floating around...just have a look in the live recording section for stealth setups

or if you do not need stealth, just clip 'em on the side of a hat, glasses,...

3. just keep this rule in mind:

- less than your ears are separated-> risk of losing the stereo picture

- more than your ears-> risk of sounding very unnatural because of the increased stereo picture

4. greenmachine can give you some good tips on how to build your own mics

and if you're in Europe and have got a lot of money to spend but really want something very good in return, you could check out Soundman mics (see also this thread)

greetings, Volta

[md-max]

2. I've recently built this (using heat shrinkable tubing and omnidirectional microphones):

Very neat, very clever! Where did you find those tiny mics and are they as good as bigger ones?

And is there anyone out there from the UK who has any suggestions for things we can get here?

[greenmachine]

I've been looking for panasonic wm-60 or wm-61 capsules, but since they seem to be unavailable here in europe (?), i've decited to use the panasonic/monacor mce-2000 capsule, which is available at various german online shops for about 3-5 euros each. Maybe they're available in th UK too, just take a look.

It's a miniature measurement capsule with a relatively flat frequency response from 20-20000 Hz (+- 2dB). Their specifications look very similar to the panasonic wm60/61 capsules. With a simple modification their perforance at high sound pressure levels can be significantly improved. They should accept SPLS far above 130dB now, which means you're sooner deaf than your mics will overload. I've bought more than i needed to have at least two closely matched capsules. They sound very good, the only more or less recognizable difference from larger/more expensive mics for me is their slightly worse signal to noise performance (>58 dB).

[greenmachine]

If you take a look at the graph in the first link, you'll see the concequences of the so-called 'proximity effect' on the bass response of directional (cardioid) microphones. The closer you move towards the source, the more bass you'll get - the further you move from the source, the less bass you'll get. They have a relatively flat response at approx. 0.3 m. Omnis don't show this behavior and have a constant frequency response at any distance.

Edited June 16, 2005 by greenmachine

[md-max]

If you take a look at the graph in the first link, you'll see the concequences of the so-called 'proximity effect' on the bass response of directional (cardioid) microphones. The closer you move towards the source, the more bass you'll get - the further you move from the source, the less bass you'll get. They have a relatively flat response at approx. 0.3 m. Omnis don't show this behavior and have a constant frequency response at any distance.

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So when are cardioid mics better? Only when they are exactly 0.3m from the source?

[greenmachine]

When you absolutely need their directional pickup pattern - they have a higher gain to feedback ratio if used properly, which is good for amplifying instruments. Did you understand the information on the dpa site?