Input Needed Mz-nh900

[kooterb]

Just wondering if there is a advantage, or harm, to using a 9v battery box in the Mic-in jack, and then setting the Vol. manuely. Would this harm my MZ-NH900 MD or my mics Core LC Cards?

While using the Line-in with the battery box is great, at some shows the sound level may drop to low and the MZ-NH900 starts to add track marks, very annoying. I don't know of a way to shut this off?

Thanks for any and all input,

KooterB

[The Low Volta]

warning: this post may contain outright wrong info

please read the posts following this one as well

Just wondering if there is a advantage, or harm, to using a 9v battery box in the Mic-in jack, and then setting the Vol. manuely. Would this harm my MZ-NH900 MD or my mics Core LC Cards?

I only think that you will harm your recording the whole reason of going line in is that you ignore the pre-amp form the MD which isn't really suited for loud sounds or heavy bass. When you would go batt-box -> mic in, the incoming signal is much stronger than without a batt box, so the rec level should be much lower. This could create noise fromthe pre-amp (when rec level gets to low). You would still get clipping and distortion very easily, as the pre-amp is still active and still can't really handle loudness/bass. Ok, the mics are fed the right voltage and will be able to take higher dB's, but all hat advantage gets wasted by the pre-amp. If you really want to go mic in, an attenuator (like A440's avatar pic) is a better choice (and much cheaper).

While using the Line-in with the battery box is great, at some shows the sound level may drop to low and the MZ-NH900 starts to add track marks, very annoying. I don't know of a way to shut this off?

there was a rumour that setting timed trackmarks @ 60 min would override the automarking...but it seems it's only a story (there is a recent thread about this by Dex Otaku)

The best method (IMHO) is to let the marks be added...just follow Dex's one and only excellent way of uploading without trackmarks or gaps where they have been... later you can do with the wav whatever you want...

greetings, Volta

Edited June 17, 2005 by The Low Volta

[greenmachine]

...When you would go batt-box -> mic in, the incoming signal is much stronger than without a batt box, so the rec level should be much lower. This could create noise fromthe pre-amp (when rec level gets to low).

How that?

If you really want to go mic in, an attenuator (lika A440 avatar pic) is a better choice (and much cheaper).

I thought the attenuator would be the 'noisy' solution?

[The Low Volta]

How that?

well, for the pre-amp noise I guess I was refering to silent recording situations, where the pre-amp could cause noise, but I forgot that when the incoming signal is strong, that would mean that it isn't a silent recording situation...so maybe this could be ignored

About the incoming signal...I actually wrote this without giving it too much thought... I reconed the line in requires a (much) higher input than the mic in, but I actually don't know this for sure (there's also the issue with mics being powered only through mic in, so I guess I was comparing apples and oranges here)

But still, there would be no real difference between going mic->mic in and mic->batt box->mic in so the rec level would have to be (*edited out: 'well under unity gain') very low to prevent clipping (which isn't the best recording setup I believe)

I thought the attenuator would be the 'noisy' solution?

hm, I never said the attenuator would be a cleaner solution greenmachine (I know your critique on the little thing, but I also know A440's love for it and as long as I haven't had the chance to test it, I will not speak for nor against it) but it does lower the incoming signal to prevent clipping... while a battery box doesn't... So to prevent it from clipping you would have to set the rec-level very low, and I doubt whether a batt box still has some extra value at that point (except for a bit more frequency range and less mic clipping) and you could almost just as well go mic->mic in (which actually is a very bad idea when recording music IMHO)

I guess:

- if you have the material, the best way would be mic->batt box-> line in (+use Dex's technique to erase all irrelevant trackmarks)

- if you really want to travel light, use mic-> attenuator -> mic in (but this could cause quality loss)

but really, I would see no real advantage in going mic->batt box->mic in for (louder) music, as all positive points by adding the batt box will be nullified by the very limited pre-amp which will very easily clip and can't handle bass

(Soundman mic manufacturer always advises to use the batt box and to use mic in only for sounds up to 82dB, which is still kind of low, and line in for louder sounds. The soundman batt box called A3-adapter also has a -20dB attenuator switch, but this is only advisable according to them if the loud sounds cause clipping even when goin line in)

the little exra effort of erasing trackmarks would be worth it for me if I could keep the good quality from a batt box

sorry for the irrelevant, faulty info before... I should think more before I write

but still, my conclusion is the same,

Volta

Edited June 17, 2005 by The Low Volta

[greenmachine]

Now that appears much clearer to me, thank you for taking the time.

[greenmachine]

But still, there would be no real difference between going mic->mic in and mic->batt box->mic in so the rec level would have to be well under unity gain to prevent clipping...

Unity gain at the mic-in? What's that?

...(which isn't the best recording setup I believe)

Why do you think it's not good to use a low level setting? I think using 10/30 without attenuator for example gives 'cleaner' results than using 15/30 or 20/30 with it.

[The Low Volta]

darn you greenmachine , I really know too little of the terminology... I just meant that the rec level would have to be very low to prevent clipping...

Why a recording level shouldn't be too low? I'm sure others could explain this better but I guess because having to raise it later could also raise all unwanted noises, not? Besides you could have to lower the level so much (lower than with line in as the pre-amp will clip at lower volumes) to prevent clipping that certain silent details get lost...I tested manual rec levels at a Mastodon concert (with a pretty bad mic->mic in) but I had to lower 'till about 7 (or even lower) to prevent clipping... it sounded very undetailed at more silent bits and still clipped when bass and bass drum sounded simultaneously (could have been the mic though)

I think using 10/30 without attenuator for example gives 'cleaner' results than using 15/30 or 20/30 with it

you could be right about this, but I think that using 20/30 (or even more?) with batt box->line in would even be better, that's my point...

so feel free to correct my previous statements...but I think I will shut up now before I further exhibit my ignorance

greetings, The Not-so-very-good-at-explaining-this-cause-he-lacks-quite-some-knowledge Volta

PS: so do we all agree that it won't harm his recorder nor mics?...If so I would say: "kooterb, please try out the different setups and let us all know what works and what doesn't... 'cause I'm digging my own grave here by trying to explain my ideas "

[greenmachine]

Here's a little graph how i use the internal level system of Sony MD recorders (with batt. box for mic-in and line-in):

I virtually never use the high sens. setting since my mics are already sensitive enough and thus don't need that much amplification in most cases.

By using a level below 10 (mic-in) the preamp overload can't be reduced any further - line-in should be used below that point. I don't use a MZ-NH900, it could look slightly different there. I don't care about automatic track marks, they can be easily deleted afterwards.

[kooterb]

Here's a little graph how i use the internal level system of Sony MD recorders (with batt. box for mic-in and line-in):

I virtually never use the high sens. setting since my mics are already sensitive enough and thus don't need that much amplification in most cases.

By using a level below 10 (mic-in) the preamp overload can't be reduced any further - line-in should be used below that point. I don't use a MZ-NH900, it could look slightly different there. I don't care about automatic track marks, they can be easily deleted afterwards.

←

My thoughts were to set mic sens to low, go battery box Mic-in and set the Vol at about 15/30 fopr my Core LC Bi's, my undertstanding is these mics can handle power up to 12v, so the 9v plus the 1.5 or whever form the MD shoud bring a mics up to about it's max ability. Lowering the Manuel Vol to 15 or say 12 should cut clipping,just my random thoughts, tho.

Thanks for all the input, I am one step closer to that perfect live recording,

Thanks

Edited June 18, 2005 by kooterb

[A440]

That graph is very informative, greenmachine. It's nice to have the equivalences set out so clearly. Kurisu should make it a sticky.

Why do you think it's not good to use a low level setting? I think using 10/30 without attenuator for example gives 'cleaner' results than using 15/30 or 20/30 with it.

←

Two things are getting a little jumbled here. If what's going into the mic isn't going to make the preamp overload--i.e., not a lot of bass, or a mic with a frequency response that starts at 100 Hz, or a mic with a (deservedly disdained) bass roll-off--then skip the attenuator and use the appropriate level.

But if there is a lot of bass, you can take manual volume down to 10 or below and you'll still get clipping. I know this from experience. And if I remember a post by Dex Otaku correctly, the manual volume control is applied after the signal goes through the preamp, when it's too late.

[greenmachine]

...my undertstanding is these mics can handle power up to 12v, so the 9v plus the 1.5 or whever form the MD shoud bring a mics up to about it's max ability.

←

You can't simply add these voltages. What you'll get are roughly the 9 volts from the batt. box, nothing more. This should be close enough to bring the mics to their optimal performance.

[kooterb]

You can't simply add these voltages. What you'll get are roughly  the 9 volts from the batt. box, nothing more. This should be close enough to bring the mics to their optimal  performance.

←

So what you are saying is that I can use the 9v battery to help bring my mics' up to their full optimal performance using the Mic-In with no harm to the mics or the MD?

I want the mic's to reach their best performance and have the benefit of the manuel Vol control.

Thanks for everyone's time,

KooterB

[A440]

I want the mic's to reach their best performance and have the benefit of the manuel Vol control.

←

You would have manual volume control available either through mic-in or line-in. The question is how loud your music is going to be.

Are your mics themselves high-sensitivity or low-sensitivity? CS has two options on those mics.

You've also switched in your questions between Cardioids and Bis.

I have used the low-sensitivity version of the LC Low-Cost Cardioids directly into mic-in at a loud show (see the Gallery under my albums, Power Serj) with no problems. Because of the limited bass response of those mics the possibility of overloading is lessened. The Bis have more bass. You'll just have to experiment with the battery box, but if the music is superloud you may overload anyway.

[greenmachine]

So what you are saying is that I can use the 9v battery to help bring my mics' up to their full optimal performance using the Mic-In with no harm to the mics or the MD?

←

Exactly, i do it all the time.

Edited June 18, 2005 by greenmachine

[dylanstew]

First of all thank you to all that have answered a million questions that I haven't got the chance to ask. This site seems to be all that a freak like myself needs.I just recorded Ray LaMontagne in Vancouver using my new MZ-RH910,and my older (higher priced) Core Stealth Cards w/batt box.The show was a fairly low level, solo acoustic show with some higher volume areas. I ran through Line-in with the rec level set at 28 for the whole show as this seemed to peak the level at -12db.And yes, I too tried the Track mark ON and set for the 60min mark and ended up with 35 tracks (He played 11 tracks). All I'm getting at is that given the choice to rec this again I would try the Mic-in for sure.I was able to apmplify in Audacity and come out with a decent memory. I was very happy with the sound but i guess that i too would rather have a stronger volume on the master.Really, Thank you All.Dylan(from the great white north).