Would Security Be Looking For Croakies?

[Daveace]

I love taping shows with my MD (Sony MZ-NF810CK), but I'm not really into the local scene too, too much. More of my concerts are by big artists at larger venues.

I just purchased the Sound Professionals croakies with the mics built-in off of minidisco. com to upgrade from my Sony ECM-717 mic. While the 717 served me very well over the years, it was always making me uneasy at shows because it could be seen without taking much effort. I figured these croakies would be a sure thing to aleviate that problem. But then that led to me thinking...

Do you think security looks for people with croakies on? Are they that hip to our games?

Any comments appreciated.

Dave

[A440]

I really wouldn't worry about it. Security is looking for booze, weapons, laser pointers and fights. If that big ol' Sony mic didn't get noticed, your Croakies are very unlikely to get you in trouble. Just don't wave around the MD and shout about how great your recording is coming out.

I have shown my MD to security people going into a show and told them it's my Walkman. They are decidedly not hip.

If you're not using an attenuator (see the pinned thread) with your ECM-717, since its bass response is limited, you may need one with your new mics. Once you get that worked out, though, you will be thrilled with the improved fidelity and stereo separation.

[DaikenTana]

What if you're using in-ear binaurals? Surely security would be curious to know why you're wearing headphones at a concert...

[A440]

Lots of folks wear earplugs at concerts. Few people will notice that your particular earplugs happen to be connected to wires.

[Daveace]

Thanks alot for the suggestions, A440. I found this on RadioShack.com (same as the one you have pictured) -- http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cata...ct%5Fid=42-2559

So all I would need to do is plug my mic into this little gizmo, then plug that thing into my mic-in then it's just business as usual?

Ah! I just checked the store inventory on Radioshack's web site, and a store right down the street has this in stock. I'll go pick this baby up first thing tomorrow morning.

Edited July 16, 2005 by Daveace

[A440]

Mic-->Attenuator-->Mic-in with Manual Volume at about 20/30 works for me for a typically loud rock concert.

There is a volume control on the attenuator. Make sure it is all the way UP, and don't let it get turned down. It's already cutting the signal just enough.

I don't know if the NF810 lets you adjust recording level while you're recording. If it doesn't, you can use the volume control on the attenuator for that, but the little knob will eventually get staticky. Better if you can set a good level on the MD unit and leave the attenuator alone.

The attenuator helps record anything with loud bass attacks that can overload the mic preamp. If you're recording acoustic music, chamber music, etc., you probably don't need it. Jazz depends on how loud the rhythm section is. Also make sure you're on Low Sensitivity under Mic Sen in REC SET.

Sony's little mics typically only record bass down to 100 Hz, which helps with the overloading problem of the MD unit's mic preamp but doesn't give you the bottom 2 1/2 octaves of music. You'll be amazed at how much better your new mics sound.

[DaikenTana]

So, if your preamp already has a manual volume control, an attenuator is basically just an optional extra volume control which doubles as a kind of guard for your preamp?

Edited July 16, 2005 by DaikenTana

[A440]

The mic preamp in MD units overloads when sound is too loud--particularlyl bassy sounds with sudden attacks, like bass drums. The attenuator limits the incoming signal so it doesn't overload.

If you're recording loud music (or other loud sound) with mics that pick up the full spectrum of bass you're likely to get distortion. Your "option" is to have a useless recording or to:

1) attenuate through Mic-In

2) use a battery box and go through Line-In

Back in the NetMD days, many units did not allow changing the Manual Volume level without putting the unit in Rec/Pause. Later NetMD units and all Hi-MD units (and all Sharps, incidentally) allow you to change the level during recording, so the volume-control aspect of the attenuator is now unnecessary. The Radio Shack volume control is a cheap little thing that doesn't bear much use anyway.

If you have an outboard preamp you'd be going through Line-In not Mic-In and bypassing the built-in preamp.

Really, it's all here.

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=9069

[DaikenTana]

Aaah, so the attenuator limits the loud sounds. I guess the result of that is a not-so-natural recording, but I'd prefer that over a distorted one any day.

Sorry 'bout taking this thread off subject, I have a bad habbit of doing that...

[greenmachine]

No, it doesn't limit/compress the sound, it just lowers the whole incoming signal - quiet and loud sections equally. The SNR will unfortunately decrease and the mics will get a (slightly) lower bias voltage unless powered separately. Whether you will notice these little downsides or not, depends - usually a less distorted recording outweighs their significance - but it's good to be aware of it at least.

[Daveace]

Allright, I'm back from RadioShack with the same deal that A440 has pictured as his icon. Seems to be an interesting piece. I'm going to wrap scotch tape around the volume knob though, to prevent static.

I am slightly wary to use this piece, though. If it just produces a low sound to take everything without distorting, when I upload through my PC's line-in, will it produce a lot of hiss? That is my only concern...

[A440]

Test it and see: blast your stereo and use various levels. Make sure the volume control on the RShack is all the way up, not down, or you won't get anything.

If your choice is between a soft undistorted recording and an unlistenable distorted recording, it's not really much of a choice. But this method gives you a louder recording than Mic-->Battery Box-->Line-In. If your first recording with it is too quiet, which I doubt, try using a higher Manual Volume level --23/30 to 25/30.

Still too quiet? (Highly improbable.) Switch to High Sensitivity under REC SET/Mic Sens, but then you will have to use a lower recording level. I prefer low sensitivity because (1) it gives you more headroom before distorting and (2) the built-in preamp isn't working so hard and adds less noise.

Bring a little flashlight and you can look at your recording levels while recording--you want the peaks to be just short of maximum. I don't know your model, but there are probably two dashes on the level display, halfway up and maximum.

Look for recordings in the Gallery of my album

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?act=m..._album&album=56

and other people's albums to get an idea of the results with various levels and setups.

If you do need to amplify the recordings, the amplification will apply to both the music and any background noise, but if you've recorded a loud concert and kept the levels between halfway and maximum, you won't need to amplify much, if at all.

[Daveace]

Okay, mics arrived today, and I've just been testing with them. As made evident right out of the chute, the attenuator is 100% essential. I have found that 16/30 would make for a good level because there isn't much chance at all of it distorting from that low. My only gripe so far is that from blasting my stereo and uploading to my computer, all that, I've noticed that with these new mics, the sound is boomy and too bassy. Any suggestions? A big show is coming up Friday and I'll be using these mics, but I really don't like what I hear so far with this boomy sound.

[greenmachine]

Some people might be mislead by taking the thinny sound cardioids usually produce as a reference point. In fact, your new mics are the more linear ones, even if it may seem overly bassy at the moment. For playback through loudspeakers you'll propably have to apply some low frequency filter afterwards not to get clobbered by bass. But for playback through headphones the sound of omnis should be perfectly suitable without any eq.

[A440]

When Edison introduced his gramophone, some listeners throught it was so lifelike they couldn't tell the difference between a live singer and an Edison recording. That was a scratchy, limited mono recording played back through a horn. Our ears and brains make a lot of adjustments when listening to recorded sound.

You've probably gotten used to the sound of your ECM 717, which has been cutting off the bottom 2- 1/2 octaves of the music. The new mics are capturing a lot more of the actual sound--unless they are seriously malfunctioning, they're not bass-heavy, they're accurate.

Though obviously these little mics aren't studio perfect, what they're picking up shouldn't be much different from what your stereo is putting out. If you have them down in a corner of the room, or on a hard reflective surface, you'll get peculiar sound, but if you have them where your ears are, they should pick up like your ears.

Give them a chance at a live show. Concert mixes are often even more bass-heavy. But as long as you don't overload your recording, you can lower the bass on playback if it's obtrusive. The general idea for concerts is to pick up the actual sound in the room and tweak it later if necessary. But when I'm listening to unaltered concert recordings afterward on headphones, there's often a wonderful you-are-there feeling.

Also, are you playing back through your computer's soundcard? Listen out of the headphone jack and see if there's any difference. You're recording and playing back through your soundcard, which may be adding some unpleasant coloration, including possibly bass boost because it expects to be playing through small computer speakers that need it. Check your Audio settings (in Control Panel) and see if there are EQualization choices for the soundcard, and find the most neutral ones.

[Daveace]

A440, First, let me start by saying that I GREATLY appreciate your time and attention towards my recording questions.

I definitely see where you're coming from with these mics. I'm sure they'll come out fine at a real live show.

Yes, when I upload to CD for distribution of the discs, I run a radioshack chord from the headphone out of the MD to the line in of the computer, then to Cool Edit for amplification/tweaking, then CD Wave to split the tracks up without gaps or unnatural edits. Is there any other way?

Btw, do you think that with the attenuator and the ManualREC on 16/30 is safe for a live show? I'm assuming that since you recommneded 20, tapping it down 4 notches would make it even safer. Is there any chance for distortion? I'll be about 30 rows back in a small theater and it is a reasonably loud concert. New wave/rock stuff.

[A440]

I record live rock all the time at 19/30 or 20/30, so if you want to be extra-safe at 16/30 go ahead.

You can hear some loud rock not only in some of the Gallery recordings but in a Yahoo mailbox (mail.yahoo.com) I opened before the Gallery was working. The box is livefrommd and the password is 1minidisc1 . There's some blasting stuff in there.

Your method is the best available for a NetMD, and since you have Cool Edit you can easily tweak the bass for playback. If you're recording in LP2 you can get improved sound with SP, but you'll have to change discs before the set is over, which loses the Manual Volume settings.

I also use Low Sens under Mic Sens in REC SET. You can set that once and it will be the default until you change it.

The best advice for a good live recording is to find a sweet spot in the room. That's usually not up close to the stage, but nearer to the soundboard.

If there's an opening band, bring along some earbuds and do some levels testing. Listen back during intermission.

[Daveace]

I'm curious as to how much sound quality is actually lost in LP2. I'm really big on getting the best quality possible, but not changing discs is waaaay too appealing to deny. Maybe someday I'll tinker with longplay mode.

I do not have the option of moving, because the concert has assigned seating, but I just checked my ticket and a seating chart and as it turns out, I'm only a couple rows behind the soundboard.

[greenmachine]

Maybe one day you'll tinker with Hi-MD and almost 8 hours continuous Hi-SP mode.

[Daveace]

Holy crap, from a mic, you can get 8 hours on a Hi-MD unit. Damn, I really need to invest in one of those!

[A440]

With seats behind the soundboard, you're in a well-nigh ideal spot.

There are two kinds of overload. One is the mic preamp in the MD unit, which is what the attenuator guards against. The other is the mic itself overloading, which is what the battery box helps prevent: by providing more power to the mic, it allows the mic to handle more volume. Usually the mic preamp overloads well before the mic. However, if the music is just too loud, the mic will overload.

I was just at a concert tonight that was way too loud, particularly the bass. I had it at 20/30 with the RS attenuator, and when the bass dropped out it sounded great. But when the bass was pumping, which was most of the show, the bass came out distorted, suggesting mic overload rather that the MD preamp overload. (It's not the total-wipeout preamp overload, but just a thud rather than a tone in the bass--you can still hear the rest of the music.)

If it's a place that really blasts the music, here's what I suggest. Bring both your new mics and your old Sony mic, along with a pair of earbuds. Record the opening act with mic and attenuator at 18/30. Run to the gents' between sets and listen back. If it's distorting--not just bass-heavy but distorted, and you'll hear the difference--then record the headline act with your Sony mic as you have before. But if the attenuator is enough--and most of the time, it is--then record the headliner with your new mics, clipped to your shirt collar or your eyeglassses or your shoulders. The stereo separation will be worlds better than your old Sony.

[Daveace]

Thanks, A440. Unfortunately, there is no opening act, just the main act will be coming out and playing. I do believe I will just bring the new SoundPro mics. Gotta officially test them out somehow. I doubt the concert will be so loud that the mics will distort, though. I'll do my the 16/30 with the attenuator, and I'll report back late Friday night after the show to tell you all how it came out. Btw, I am also going to wrap scotch tape around the attenuator to prevent the volume knob from sliding in my pocket, just to cover all ground.