IRA vows to end armed campaign..

[Christopher]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/28...ment/index.html

I usually keep my mouth shut on opinionated topics, but my roots are too deep in this matter and I can't hold it any further. I imagine this thread is going to be pretty hot tempered, so the rules don't apply here. I will never lock this, nor will any moderator - it's time we played some hardball. Disclaimer aside,

Britain holds on to Northern Ireland like a dog and a bone. If Ireland was thousands of miles away, the British would end it's military occupation of Northern Ireland. However, it's next door and the IRA has defeated every effort by MI5/6, James Bond, etc to penetrate the organization. So, with their back up, they just stay; that occupation has caused the death of thousands of people.

It's not unlike the American occupation of Iraq; we (USA) invaded Iraq on false pretenses, and now we are stuck. That's the problem with people who fail to read and understand history - they repeat terrible mistakes.

The IRA will never disarm; they will keep quiet now that the Muslims are doing their bombing for them. See any resemblance? The Muslims are protesting the American military occupation of Iraq - what stupid people Bush and his advisors are! The American soliders want to live, and the Muslims want to die. These circumstances alone make the whole "war on terror" a no-win war for America, sad to say.

[Syrius]

What are you talking about, Kurisu? It's time to stay the course! *sarcasm*

Yeah, it sucks.

[lewpei]

I get upset when we seem to think violence will solve our problems and to try to prove a point we resort to killing our fellow man. You notice I did not say humans because in my mind anyone who carries out violent acts again innocent people are not human. This goes for both sides.

I think the worse part of the struggle in Ireland is that the churches on both sides are in favor of the violent actions carried out by their members. My "GOD" must be different from theirs as mine does not advocate killing anyone for any reason and especially because he goes to a different church.

A little bit of compassion and understanding on both sides could go a long way to end this struggle & bring peace to the poor ordinary citizens of Ireland.

No matter what happens in the future Ireland and her people are the big losers.

[Christopher]

Don't leave the forum because what I'm saying here; I know this will piss someone off. This is a discussion and we all have our opinions, remember that.

For 99 years the British have orphaned countless Irish by jail, killing countless IRA families - at home and all over the world. When my Father was a child, he had to run the British gauntlet and deliver food and money to IRA families in need. In case you didn't know, until America intervened in the early 1900's, it was routine for British to hang, draw, and quarter live IRA prisoners in Arbour Hill prison in Dublin. They used hordes to pull the live prisoners apart.

My Father was a military policeman in the Irish army and guarded Arbour Hill prison, now under Irish army rule. In a rush to get out of Southern Ireland, the British forgot to take the prison logs. He spent many nights reading those horrorific logs. They also forced Irish families out of their land so that English lords could build their massive castles with Irish slave labor. The British had perfected Ethnic clensing; they forced hundreds of thousands of Irish families to Australia, remote islands and just about any place that had a seaport. The ships that transported the Irish were called "coffin ships" - the death rate aboard was as high as sixty percent or higher.

If the British had not plundered Ireland, I would have been Irish royalty because of my bloodline - one of my ancestors was the King of Ireland in 1187.

I don't justify any killing done by anyone, but I hope at least some of you understand what the Irish people have gone through.

[rirsa]

I grew up a short distance from Belfast and have relatives there. The British haven't exactly distinguished themselves over the years in Ireland but the history and relationships in this part of the world are complex. There are plenty of attrocities to go around. Selective memory--a practice engaged in by all parties to the conflict--has never helped. Irish-American gullibility backed with money have been a big part of the modern problem in this regard. Gerry loves you lot. Americans have a big responsibility. Funny how the tune changed on terrorism when people started blowing up buildings in American cities.

The current conflict is at heart a sectarian one. The majority of the population in Northern Ireland is Protestant, mostly Presbyterian. Many of those were of Scottish origin but have been there for a long time. They are Irish. (People have been moving back and forth between Scotland and Ireland for a couple of thousand years at least.) The Presbyterians want to remain British; not because they have any great love for the mainland Brits (they don't, in fact, they fear, probably rightly, that many mainland Brits would be more than happy to be rid of them and the whole "Irish Problem") but because they don't want to be a Protestant minority in a united Ireland. Until a democratic majority in the North decides to merge with the Republic, Northern Ireland remains part of Britian.

IRA? Freedom fighters against Britsih oppression? As often or not they are killing people in their own community who interfere in their various criminal enterprises. And if you think people in Dublin would just love a united Ireland, think again. Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley; the IRA and the UVF? I bet they just can't wait to get into bed with that lot. Don't be so naive.

Edited August 2, 2005 by rirsa

[Christopher]

Looks like Hain is going to remove 6,000 soliders from Northern Ireland over the next two years:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/0...n.ap/index.html

Amazing shit, considering everything up to this point.

[rirsa]

There's decades to go yet on reolving these issues.

If you want to get an education on this stuff, here's a site with lots of links to different perspectives on the events and issues:

http://www.sluggerotoole.com/

And here's an intersting take on the Sinn Fein and the Provos from the Irish Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform:

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story...imit=1105592400

Edited August 2, 2005 by rirsa

[Christopher]

Protestants in the North are not afraid of the South. Dundalk is a major IRA city and my birthplace. Protestants, while in the minority, have always flourished in Dundalk; all of the businesses are Protestant owned since British rule, and the South left them alone when we got our independence. Just as you cross the bridge into Dundalk from Northern Ireland, you are greeted by the sight of a massive Protestant church - stained glass up the ying yang. That church and others have not as much as a scratch - my Father attended school with many Protestants, and religion was never an issue, even in jest or whatnot.

I'm named for the son of a Protestant neighbor, Christopher Taylor, a veteran British Marine Commando Commander. My Father and him grew up together, played in the same playpen and chased the same girls. My Father didn't know he was Protestant until after he left Ireland and received his death notice.

No, it is not a religious war - the British want you to believe that. They make religion an issue to keep things stirred up, demanding a British presence. Why would they stay? Well, it's simple: money, location, and shipbuilding + training.

- Money because the North is extremely wealthy, and throws off mega millions in taxes to the British government each year. Then there is the ground tax that every property owner has to pay to the British royal family and it's lords and dukes.

- Location because Ireland's North and South shores command a view and have control of the sea and it's approaches to Europe, and the subs pass close to shore. Then there is the west coast, that faces the Atlantic ocean, and that is why the British need a presence in Ireland.

- The massive Harland and Wolfe shipbuilding yards in Belfast. How big? The fricking Titanic was built there. And last but not least, training and pride. The British have little left of their Empire, and nowhere to train their Army. The North is an excellent training camp.

Britain has never managed to come to grips with the IRA. MI5,6,7 - besides the matter of money, etc, the Irish are the British next door's noisy neighbors. Anger and pride makes them stick out their lower lip. As to American money, that's bullshit - there was some in the late sixties when the British army was terrorizing Catholics in the North. The money thing was put out by the British. Sad to say the IRA became involved in criminal activity, but not on the scale the British have conjured up. These criminals are the children of IRA members who were killed by the British or stuck in jail for life with no appeal.

The British are the best when it comes to propaganda, and sad to say some people, who honestly wish to research and learn about the war in the North, are fed MI5 written books and periodicals. They have been caught placing "sleeper' reporters and writers all over the world, including the South. Remember, my Father grew up with the IRA, went to school with them, served in the Irish Army, and even wrote the "IRA". What you've written is sad for me to read, as I've read many like it, and they all sound like British propaganda.

[rirsa]

Ah, you are on to me! I was planted by MI5 to infiltrate the minidisc discussion boards! Ha, ha. We're everywhere.

You have no idea what you are talking about. To say this conflict has nothing to do with religion is ludicrous. That's like saying race has no bearing on American politics. Forget about Ireland for a second. Religion and politics are throughly intertwined in English and Scottish politics. Read some history. Why do you think the Founding Fathers in this country separated Church and State?

Your personal anecdote's hold no general significance. Want another one? There's another nice wee town in Northern Ireland where Catholics and Protestants get along called Enniskillen and guess what the Provos did to them? Want to test your theory that religion has nothing to do with this. Take a walk down the Shankill Road shouting "I love the Pope" or wander around West Belfast in an orange T-shirt and see how long you last before some paramilitary thug pushes you into a car and drives you off somewhere quite and shoots your knee caps off. Hell, they might just do it right there on the street. Sounds like a new good idea for a reality T show. Clueless Americans discover sectarianism. They could do an episode at an "Old Firm" game in Glasgow and a few other places besides.

The money. Yeah, the North is exteremly wealthy and the Brits are making a mint. It's one of the most depressed economic areas in Western Europe. The Republic is a different matter. It's booming. And it wasn't just money that was coming from Americans. Bloody hell, Whitey Bulger and company were shipping arms out of South Boston. Or maybe the British infiltrated the Boston Globe, the Federal courts, and the local FBI?

Harland and Wolfe? The days of building the Titanic are long gone. They don't do much any more and what they do do could be moved elsewhere. They hardly have any employees.

You're living in a paranoid fantasy land. There is no discussion worth having on this matter. You'll believe what you want to believe.

Edited August 3, 2005 by rirsa

[Christopher]

It's not a paranoid fantasy land, it's how things were. Perhaps they've changed completely, but the roots of this confrontation are exactly how I've described them. God knows what it is now.

[rirsa]

You are so sure of the "roots" of the problem. Do you mean the modern troubles (i.e. since the late 1960s) or earlier in the 20th century, or are we going back to The Wars of the Three Kingdoms, the "Glorious Revolution", the Battle of the Boyne in the 17th C., or even further back? Seems reasonable to go back to at least the 17th C. given that "King Billy" continues to play such a huge symbolic role in the current conflicts and what happened then had such a huge impact on the modern political relationships of England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland. Much of this stuff is mythologized by the various parties to the conflict to justify current positions. Read any histories of the conflicts in the 17th C. and you realize that the inter-related conflicts then were rather complex and the alignments of different sides rather different. Ask ten people party to the current conflict about the roots of the problem and you'll get ten different answers.

It's not a paranoid fantasy land, it's how things were. Perhaps they've changed completely, but the roots of this confrontation are exactly how I've described them. God knows what it is now.

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Edited August 10, 2005 by rirsa

[Sparky191]

Sad to see this post on the forums. Its really not appropriate. Its doesn't help that its so out of date its unreal. The ship yards are limping along and its over 60 years since the north had any strategic importance. Most of the industries in the North have needed the financial crutch from the UK to support them for decades. Irleland is simply not economical for heavy industries. We have no natural resorces to sustain such industries. The only thing Belfast had going for it was that it was a natural deep water port. However the services in the North like the UK, health, etc are much better than in the South, the infrastructure is better and better run. Even the roads are better in the North. The South has one of the highest cost of living in the World. The people keeping the conflict going are in the minority. Most people are just not interested in it anymore. Yes there is still bigotry and prejudice, espectially within the establishment, but its nothing like what it was 10-20yrs ago. The south has had a huge influx of immigrants, and refugees from all over the world. Its a multicultural society and the troubles in the north is a throwback to past history that many people just have no interest in. In fact they would see the immigrants as a bigger problem then the conflicts in the North. The paramilitary groups from all sides all have strong links to criminality, and for most people that destroys any credibilty that groups have.

The world and the south has moved on. The history of the north really is too complex for most people and they have some vague understanding of the whole thing. At end of the day this all started way back in the 12th century. Your arguing about medival history for crying out loud. However what happened then is no excuse for keeping it going almost 1000yrs later. The troubles in present day really came out of partition in 1921 and the Civil Rights' Movement in the 60's. These days its more about robbing banks and control of the criminality in the various areas.

[rirsa]

Ah, a touch of reality. Thank you Sparky!

[Christopher]

Why is it sad to see this here, Sparky191? What problem have you with free speech? If you can't handle a discussion with two sides to the issue then there's no need for the comments. My opinion may seem a bit dated, but it's been a while since I lived in Ireland and my thoughts and feelings towards the matter are largely based off my Father's opinion of the subject. I realized they are biased sentiments. As you can see, Rirsa was able to carry on with me and not be so overly critical, so please try and be a little more fair in your words.

The paramilitary groups from all sides all have strong links to criminality, and for most people that destroys any credibilty that groups have.

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There isn't any credibility with any of the parties involved; it's all nonsensical. I hope you guys don't think I'm trying to be a martyr, but surely you must value such an opinion from someone who has conversed with one from the front lines of the matter - I never see these kind of conversations or rhetoric anywhere. Is it too taboo for the Internet, in your opinion, or do you honestly feel I cite hogwash?