Microphone and Connection to Hi-MD

[ninetynine]

I will be getting the Sony MZ-RH910 pretty soon. The main purpose I will be using it will be for field recording. Also for recording concerts , vocals etc...

In terms of microphones I don't want to go over 150 dollars, was thinking of getting either the

Audio Technica AT804

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mi...8b97/index.html

or

Sony ECMM907

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/P...roductId=118536

I understand that with the audio technica I will be needing a XLRM to 3.5mm connection. My question is will i be needing a mono or stereo connection? Also, will this mini disc allow me to transfer my audio files by USB connection? What do you think of these choices? Thanks.

[The Low Volta]

the recordings will be USB transferable, make sure to upgrade to SS3.2 (can be found here on the forums in the download section) and follow the pinned "gapless burning CD's thread" in the live rec section for upload instructions

the Sony mic isn't very good, the AT didn't open in my browser...but check Soundpro's as they have very good stereo omni mics for <$150 (which is already quite a lot for biginner mics)

[ninetynine]

this is it

http://www.minidisco.com/at804.html

[greenmachine]

A mono dynamic mic like the AT is pretty useless except for close miking applications like interviews. Listen to Volta. A 'binaural' electret stereo mic like the sp-bmc-2 should be much more versatile.

[ninetynine]

I see, I'll look into that...

What about this audio technica model:

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mi...e6b3/index.html

[The Low Volta]

here's a link to the SP-BMC-2's and from there you could check all the other SoundPro mics

[greenmachine]

I see, I'll look into that...

What about this audio technica model:

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mi...e6b3/index.html

Main drawbacks: limited (low) frequency response, fixed mic elements in xy-config. Giving left and right channel a distance of about 6-8" will greatly improve stereo realism.

[ninetynine]

hmm...what exactly does that mean?

Im a bit new at this lol

[A440]

When you listen, your brain is processing sound picked up by two receptors (your ears) about six inches apart. From the slight differences between those receptors, your brain derives all sorts of information about distance, location, etc.

If you have a pair of left and right microphones separated by the width of your ears, they will pick up like your ears and give you a much more realistic sound.

A one-point stereo microphone like the AT won't pick up as much spatial information, and as you move further away from your sound source, what it will pick up will be closer to mono. Playing it back with headphones, it will sound like everything is right in the middle of your head. Playing it back with speakers, it will also sound flat. Whereas if you take a pair of stereo microphones and separate them like your ears, playback will sound a lot closer to three-dimensional. Concerts and field recordings will sound a lot richer. Recording vocals, you'd just want to bring the two mics closer together to work as they would in the one-point mics you've been looking at. But the flexibility of a pair of mics you can separate is invaluable.

Regarding frequency response: It's the spectrum from the lowest note to the highest note the mic will pick up. Your MD can record and play back 20-20,000 hz, which is approximately the spectrum of human hearing. Every octave is a doubling of frequency, so 20-40 Hz is one octave, 40-80 Hz is the next octave, etc. So if the mic only goes down to 100 Hz, you are losing more than two full octaves of bass response. (On the other hand, between 17,000 and 20,000 is less than an octave, though without the highest frequencies the ear misses overtones that make the music sound crisp.)

100Hz and up is adequate for speech, vocals, etc., except maybe James Earl Jones. But unless you are listening to flute quartets, it will lose a lot of the depth in most music. The bottom note of a piano is 27.5 Hz, and a good rock sound system goes below that. Your MD can capture it, and your mic should too.

[ninetynine]

will these sound just as good with loud music like in a concert hall? What about with more subtle sounds ?

Which would you recommend?

[A440]

Look at the albums in the Gallery to hear recordings with various microphones.

For subtle sounds, look at the Signal to Noise (S/N) ratio of your prospective microphones: higher is always better. You can also look at sensitivity, but there is a tradeoff--if a mic is too sensitive, loud music can more easily overload the mic or the preamp in the MD unit.

Even in a recording studio, it is difficult to record quiet sounds because there is noise from both the mic and the preamp that boosts its signal high enough to record. (A mic jack in a piece of recording equipment means there is a built-in preamp at that connection.) Super low noise mics and preamps get very expensive.

For a good basic setup--concerts, lectures, louder ambient recording--get a stereo omni pair like the Sound Professionals BMC-2. With loud bassy music, either:

1) use an attenuator (Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control, $7, look at the pinned thread) and run through mic-in on Low Sensitivity, or

2) use a battery box and run through line-in (which expects an already amplified signal), or

3) use an external preamp and run through line-in.

For quiet sounds, either run directly into mic-in or run through a preamp into Line-in.

If you're handy you can build these yourself: see greenmachine's thread among the pinned threads.

[ninetynine]

I never knew about these binaural mic's before I started reading on this forum. I've only seen one point microphones being mentioned on other field recording sites, are you judging the microphone based upon the frequency response and the 2 dimension sound?

[ninetynine]

I have another question , I was looking into the core audio microphones

http://www.core-sound.com/lcmics/1.php

from what I understand binaural is omnidirectional ( what I would prefer) and cardioid is ( directional).

I'll be using the mic for mainly collecting sounds and using them for sampling purposes for my music. Also I would love to record concerts (very loud ones ) from time to time.

Also, will I be needing a battery box and the low sensitivity option with the rh900 minidisc? Thanks again.

Edited October 4, 2005 by ninetynine

[A440]

I have a pair of Sound Pros BMC-2's and a pair of the binaural Core Sound mics from your link. I have gotten good results with both, as you can hear in my Album in the Gallery. I've been using the Core Sounds lately because they seem sturdier, but I've never done a direct comparison of the sound. The Core Sound low-cost cardioids don't pick up as much bass.

Field recording means different things to different people, I guess. A lot of people want a one-point mic they can mount on their camcorder.

To me, concerts sound better with separated mics than with a one-point--it's just no contest. If I were recording ambient sounds, I would want the same kind of enveloping sound. To use ambient sounds as short sampled effects in a recording, conceivably you might prefer the one-point, near-mono sound for more punch. But if you want to feel like you are there, binaural recording (two mics spaced like your ears) is the way to go.

So-called binaural mics should actually be called omnis, but microphone sellers often use the terms interchangeably.

Heavy bass is hard on the little built-in preamps in MD units, including the RH900. It overloads them and completely ruins a recording. That's probably one reason Sony's microphones "for minidisc" only go down to 100 Hz--to evade the problem by pretending the bass register doesn't exist. I believe, as an impression rather than anything I've tested back-to-back, that the pre-amps in the Hi-MD units are a little less prone to overload than the ones in the older MD units, but I still use an attenuator with my MZ-NHF800. You'll have to experiment.

Whether you will need low sensitivity or a battery box (not both together, by the way) depends on how loud what you're recording is going to be. If you also want to record ambient sounds, then get a high-sensitivity mic and either an attenuator or a battery box. A low-sensitivity mic won't pick up the quieter sounds you want for ambient recording.

[ninetynine]

Thanks , that clarifies a lot of things.

So , if I still want to record sublte ambient sounds your saying that an attenuator or battery box will compensate for the loud concert recordings?? Correct me if i'm wrong! Also, what type of attenuator would be neeeded? I did a search on the radioshack website and this is what I got http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp?cooki...e1=submit&SRC=1

Edited October 5, 2005 by ninetynine

[A440]

The Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control. It works as an attenuator. Take a look at the pinned thread under Live Recording.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cata...ct%5Fid=42-2559

When you want to record quiet sounds, go direct to mic-in. When you want to record loud sounds, mic--> RS attenuator-->mic-in. Or mic-->battery box-->line-in.

[ninetynine]

Ah I see, too bad we don't have radioshack here in canada anymore. They replaced the store by The Source (Circuit City). Would this do the job then?

http://www.thesourcecc.com/estore/Product....product=4202559

Also, I would just need to plug it?, would I have to touch the volume control on it ?

Edited October 5, 2005 by ninetynine

[greenmachine]

It's not the sensitivity of a mic that makes it suitable for quiet ambient sounds, it's a low self-noise. There are slight differences between models, but virtually all miniature mics perform rather poorly for this task. For extremely loud sounds you should look for their max. SPL rating. I got poor results with rather highly sensitive mics and attenuator to mic-in at extreme SPLs.

[A440]

That headphone volume control looks like the same thing, so go for it. Leave the volume all the way up.

Self-noise is a big problem, as I mentioned above. If you want to record a pin dropping, you're going to have to spend a lot more to do it right, or filter some noise out of the recording afterward. But low sensitivity does raise the threshold of what the mic will pick up.

greenmachine and I go back and forth on the usefulness of the attenuator, though other folks seem to like it.

You can hear attenuator recordings on my Album in the Gallery.

It doesn't solve everything. The attenuator helps prevent the MD's mic preamp from overloading, but if you are at a ridiculously loud concert, where you can feel the bass pounding against your eardrums, then the mic will overload before the signal gets to the attenuator. (A battery box will make it harder for the mic itself to overload.) For $6, I suggest trying it and seeing how it works for you, and if you don't like the results, get (or make) a battery box.

[ninetynine]

It's not the sensitivity of a mic that makes it suitable for quiet ambient sounds, it's a low self-noise. There are slight differences between models, but virtually all miniature mics perform rather poorly for this task. For extremely loud sounds you should look for their max. SPL rating. I got poor results with rather highly sensitive mics and attenuator to mic-in at extreme SPLs.

So your saying that miniature mics don't do well for quiet and loud sounds but they perform well in the middle? How do you check for self noise and SPL?

[greenmachine]

With an optimally configured FET amplifier stage, small diaphragm mics beat large d. at high SPLs, while large d. outperform small d. at low SPLs with their lower self noise.

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=28

Many 'non-professional' mics don't have an optimally configured FET amp stage though and are limited at high SPLs because of that. The source follower mod can improve the performance there, which seems to be the main difference between core sound high and low cost 'binaurals'.

[A440]

Most of what you are recording will be in the middle.

Look under the specifications of your prospective mics.

Self-noise is the S/N ratio or signal-to-noise ratio, and a higher number is better: more signal, less noise.

Maximum SPL (sound pressure level) is also under specs, expressed in decibels. As you'll see when you look at specs, a battery box raises the maximum SPL of the mic. But without an attenuator at mic-in or a battery box to run through line-in (where there's no preamp), the MD's preamp will overload well before the mic does.

Here's a good decibel scale (scroll down the page).

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys...und/u11l2b.html

And I used to think FET was a cheese....

[ninetynine]

Which will be better, the low cost binaurals from core sound or the SP - BMC 3 from Sound Professionals? Also , I was probably thinking of getting one pair of binaurals and a one point audio technica microphone for shows like this one---http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/5f7e96b21f21e6b3/index.html

How do the core sound differ from the sound professionals?

[A440]

You should just compare specs side by side on the mics. If you're primarily concerned about S/N ratio, then look at that; if you're concerned about SPL, look at that, etc.

Core Sound is known for good workmanship and relatively high prices. Sound Pros gives more bang for the buck. Look closely at the photos, and think about things like what the mountings look like, how thick the wires are, etc. When I want ultra-stealth, I take my BMC-2's, because they're on little skinny wires and they're very small. If I'm worried about getting jostled, I take my Core Sound Low-Cost Binaurals, which are on thicker wires.

Both Sound Pros and Core Sound have a 30-day guarantee. Your best move--and it would only cost you return shipping for one item--might be to order both, try them and return the loser.

Your Audio-Technica link only goes to the main site page--you need to specify which model. I don't understand why you want a one-point for shows, unless you want to have a cardioid for directionality. The little omnis will be much stealthier than the A-T mic you mentioned earlier, they'll give you a much more listenable result, and you won't have to hold a mic in your hand through the show.

[ninetynine]

You should just compare specs side by side on the mics. If you're primarily concerned about S/N ratio, then look at that; if you're concerned about SPL, look at that, etc.

Core Sound is known for good workmanship and relatively high prices. Sound Pros gives more bang for the buck. Look closely at the photos, and think about things like what the mountings look like, how thick the wires are, etc. When I want ultra-stealth, I take my BMC-2's, because they're on little skinny wires and they're very small. If I'm worried about getting jostled, I take my Core Sound Low-Cost Binaurals, which are on thicker wires.

Both Sound Pros and Core Sound have a 30-day guarantee. Your best move--and it would only cost you return shipping for one item--might be to order both, try them and return the loser.

Your Audio-Technica link only goes to the main site page--you need to specify which model. I don't understand why you want a one-point for shows, unless you want to have a cardioid for directionality. The little omnis will be much stealthier than the A-T mic you mentioned earlier, they'll give you a much more listenable result, and you won't have to hold a mic in your hand through the show.

Thanks a lot for all the help, very much appreciated. This link of the audio technica pro24 should work :

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/AT-PRO24

I guess now its up to deciding weather to go with the bmc 2's or the low cost core sound binaurals. According to you can you hear an audible diffference ?between the both?

Edited October 5, 2005 by ninetynine

[greenmachine]

How durable is the connection between mic and cable with the SP / CS / what materials do they use around the mic elements to prevent wear / stress on the connections? Is there any chance that connections might become loose over time? I remember reading about TFB-2s with loose connections, but don't ask me where - i don't remember.