Several doubts from a newbie

[Neurus]

Hi there. First off, let me tell you that I've been lurking on these forums for the last three weeks before opening my first thread. I've been reading like mad to the point that my head is starting to ache and I feel a bit dizzy with all the info I gathered...

Anyway, I decided to buy a Hi-MD for live recording because I wanted to tape in a lossless format and in a third-world country like mine (Argentina) DAT is out of the question. It seems those devices have never arrived here, and I couldn't have afforded another DAT deck for transferring only anyway, so...

I have chosen the MZ-NH700... Well, not that I had many options. Actually, it's the only model available on the Sony Store. Too bad the screen lacks the backlight feature (I'll have to make sure I take a flashlight with me every time). But it costs 166 bucks, so it's not that bad of a device, I guess...

Soooo, as I was saying... Eventhough I have a lot of info in my head, I would like some points to be clarified by the experts, that is, YOU.

1- Should I worry that much about the so-called SonicStage? You can all assure me that SS3.2 no longer limits the ammount of transfers from the MD to my PC? Mind you, I'm going to use the Hi-MD almost exclusively for recording concerts, so in fact, once I transfer the show to my PC, I wouldn't be transferring again. But I've read about a lot of complaints referring to SS crashing in the middle of a transfer and then rejecting to upload again because the software interpreted that the tracks had already been transferred. Is the brand new SS3.3 stable or should I stick with SS3.2 until all bugs are fixed? I think the MZ-NH700 comes with SS2.sth... You can update without paying anything, right?

2- Continuing with the freaky SonicStage, did I get it wrong or I read somewhere that it wouldn't recognize for transferring recordings done in LINE-IN, which means that patching into the soundboard or plugging my MIC in the LINE-IN would be out of the question. Has SS3.2 changed that or the only way I can record a concert is with the MIC in the MIC-IN?

3- Talking about MIC-IN and LINE-IN... I still don't understand in which cases one should choose MIC-IN and when I should go for LINE-IN. Supposedly, LINE-IN is for heavier concerts? That's what I recall reading... But why exactly? What is the technical explanation, I'm curious, I want to understand everything, sorry hehe Mind you, I'm planning on taping bands like Mudhoney, Pearl Jam (those two are going to be my first recording experience), Television, punk rock (like Bad Religion) and heavier bands like NIN, Dream Theater, etc... But if I plug my mic in the LINE-IN, do I need something else like extra battery or bass-roll off or that doesn't have anything to do? I tell you, I'm very cheap and I'm on a limited budget, and all my recordings are going to be stealth because sucurity here is a pain in the ass, so if possible I would like to tape with just the MD... and a MIC (of course, I'm not that cheap ).

4- About transferring/uploading to the PC, I have read in this thread about all the ways of doing it thanks to user sebastianbf's thorough instructions, BUT I'm still puzzled regarding the quality you get. I gather that the best is via USB with the cable that comes with the MD. How about the PC link? Do you MAINTAIN the same quality with any way of transferring? On what does it depend? Using better cables? and about recording in real time, why would anyone do that? You lose quality there, I assume?

Well, if you could dissipate these doubts, that would do for the time being. Later on, I will ask about MICS in the Live Recording section.

Thanks a lot! And, please, don't hate me for having so many doubts... I'm just a newbie

Edited November 9, 2005 by Neurus

[greenmachine]

1) SS 3.2 and 3.3 both have worked flawlessly for uploading/conversion for me so far. Download links can be found in the software section of the forums. All downloads are free of charge.

2) Recordings from line- and mic-in both can be uploaded and converted. Optical-in recordings can be uploaded but not converted with SS. We have a free software called 'Himdrenderer' for that. Downloaded tracks via USB are protected and can't be re-uploaded.

3) Most of the time it's either mic-in low sensitivity or line-in with battery box. You need a battery box to provide the mics the required bias voltage, which is absent at the line-in and has to be supplied externally via battery box. With the average electret mic you most propably need to record loud rock concerts via BB/line-in for best results. With very low sensitive mics the mic-in might serve you well for a wide variety of situations. The built-in mic preamp preampifies the signal and overloads significantly sooner than ther line-in. There are also cheap tricks like the mics connected to the headphone attenuator connected to mic-in, but this usually gives inferior results at high SPLs than recording via line-in.

4) All you need is a standard USB cable and either SS 3.2 or 3.3. Other methods should only be used if the regular transfer fails.

[A440]

Just to expand on greenmachine's post a little:

Mic-in provides a little bit of power to the mics to help them pick up sound. It also has a preamplifier behind it because the signal from a mic is not as strong as the signal from a device with line-out--a stereo, a soundboard, a mixer, etc. That little built-in preamplifier has limitations: it can't handle loud music and it can't handle much bass at all--it overloads.

Most of the time for live music I use an attenuator, the technical name for the Headphone Volume Control you can get for $7 from Radio Shack (see my avatar) or Maplins in England (VC-1). It's stealthy--just a knob on a cord--and it cuts the signal going into the Mic-in jack. It's a makeshift thing, but it usually works for me. See the Live Recording FAQ.

With super-loud music the mic itself can also overload. (This has happened to me at hip-hop shows and lately at NIN, though I was using new mics and they may have been overly sensitive.) Usually the mic preamp overloads first. However, if you're using an attenuator, it slightly reduces how much sheer volume the microphone itself can take. If you can feel the bass caving in your eardrums, the mic is probably overloading.

So for superloud music, there's another strategy: Line-in. You need a battery module (about $50-$60 from Sound Professionals or Microphone Madness). The battery module provides more power (from its battery, of course) to the mics, which broadens their dynamic range and lets them take in more sound without overloading. Run that through Line-in, which has no preamp to overload. They make little battery modules now, the size of a car-alarm remote.

Bass rolloff will make your recordings sound tinny. Some boxes have it because a lot of live concert mixes use too much bass and, as above, bass makes the mic preamp overload. But it's better to use the attenuator or battery box and get all the bass without overloading--you can always lower it on playback.

PC Link was for old units, before Hi-MD. It's no longer relevant. The USB transfer is a digital upload.

The crucial thing in your recording is the mics. Make sure the frequency response is 20-20000K or wider. Also see if you can find low-sensitivity ones since you are generally recording loud music. Basic newbie mics: Sound Professionals BMC-2, $49 with clips (you'll need the clips). Attenuator: $7. Mic-->attenuator (with volume full UP)--Mic-In. Plug in the mics, hit Rec and Pause together, use Menu to get to Rec Set/Rec Volume/Manual at 18/30 for a loud show. Leave the whole thing on Pause, tuck it in a pocket or wherever, un-Pause it to start recording when the show starts and you're good to go.

Edited November 9, 2005 by A440

[Neurus]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH GUYS

I really appreciate that you took the time to answer all my doubts! Each and every question, the way I wanted (hence the numbering). You rock!

Now... About MICS... The truth is if possible I'd rather buy something in my country than on E-Bay or any international store since the first concert is in two weeks (Friday the 25th) so I'm kind of in a hurry as you can see. Packages tend to arrive late in most cases and they might even get delayed in the Customs Office so I can't hold my breath...

I can get the following Sony models...

ECMDS30P - Unidirectional stereo. It looks interesting, but it doesn't come with a cable so I'd have to hold the MD the whole show. I'm not convinced... SPECS Frequency response seems poor?

ECMCS10 - Omnidirectional stereo. It's only one, mind you. It comes with cable and a clip. It looks promising but I'm not sure if it's sensitive enough. SPECS Frequency response better than the previous one but still poor?

By the way, which are better mics? Unidirectionals, omnidirectionals? Does it make a real difference? Or as long as they're stereo, it's OK?

ECMDS70P - Yes, I know, A440... I read somehere that you particularly hated these and recommended not to buy Sony mics at all. This one comes with cable, clip and according to the description it's a professional stereo mic, ideal for DAT and MD and with the best results in distance and crispness... Now, what is this? Omnidirectional or unidirectional? Are mics with the L and R any good? I read that when you have two mics and want to record in stereo the best way is to separate them as much as you can so in this case they wouldn't be that far from each other. Now, are you aware that this one comes with internal batteries (like those you use in watches)? Would those batteries be enough for the MIC to go LINE-IN or voltage would still be too low? SPECS

ECM719 - This one is similar to the previous one BUT if you look closely it has a VOICE---MUSIC mode and the description says it reduces external noise. Also comes with internal batteries. Now, I don't know if that voice-music mode might make a big difference really... SPECS

Finally, I'd still be willing to gamble and purchase something online in case I'm lucky and the package arrives on time. This

seller on E-Bay sells a variety of mics and a phantom power and I was thinking of getting the STEREO-Y-MICROPHONE-PANASONIC-MICS together with the phantom power he sells. What do you think about those? Of course he claims they're the best thing on E-Bay you can get, but what else would he say. Anyway, between those and all the other Sony mics I asked you about, what would you choose? I particularly like these because they're two and come with clips and windscreens so I could attach them on the little braces on the shoulders of my military jacket. Are there any other mics on that seller's store that you would choose over the one I propose?

WELL... THERE IT IS. THOSE ARE ALL MY DOUBTS AS FAR AS MICS ARE CONCERNED. Again, sorry for being such a newbie and for asking a lot of questions. And thanks once again for being so cool and taking some time to help other people out!

[greenmachine]

Like A440, i would use neither of the Sony mics for said reasons. These Panasonic mics are propably your best bet as long as the manufacturer/seller matches the channels or you're lucky to get a good pair. Unfortunately his phantom power supply/battery box uses only 3 volts instead of up to 10, which won't let you use the mics' full dynamic range. This could be critical at high SPLs like rock concerts. Considering the price, i'd give this combo a try. Maybe you're skilled enough to modify the box for 9 volts or ask him if he would do it for you. Maybe it works well even with only 3 V. You'll have to see.

For mic placement i'd suggest to mount them to the rim of some glasses near your ears to gain height and channel separation.

[A440]

When you see "voice" or "business," those are tipoffs that the microphone records in a narrow frequency range and will make music sound very constricted. Human voices have a much smaller frequency range than instruments. And as you've noticed, one-point mics don't separate the elements.

Like greenmachine, I'd try the Panasonics. The clips look a little ungainly--you might want to paint them black. And you have to just cross your fingers that the two mics are well matched. Or spend another $20 and get Sound Professionals BMC-2's.

Where greenmachine and I inevitably disagree is over using an attenuator. I suggest getting the Panasonics and a Radio Shack Headphone Volume Control (attenuator) and taking them to your next concert. If that doesn't sound good to you, then you can either get the Ebay 3V battery module or get a better, higher-powered battery module from Sound Professionals or Microphone Madness for around $50.

[Neurus]

Thank you once again guys! I'm really adopting you as my audio senseis!

I have finally decided to take a risk with shipping delays and go for the Sound Professionals BMC-2's. I figure that if I have been all these years without taping, at worst I'll miss out on a couple of shows but I'll be prepared with good equipment for the upcoming concerts. Still, if the night before the Mudhoney-Pearl Jam shows the package hasn't arrived, I'll get one of the Sony (anti)mics and make a bet. I guess something is better than nothing...

NOW, while browsing the amazing SP site (I want to buy everything!!!) I also came across the (and let me stand up) LOW NOISE IN-EAR BINAURAL MICROPHONES (I figure I'd need the standard sensitivity in my case) Wow! Just wow... That is the shit! Yes, just a little more expensive that the BMC-2's (which I'm already sold on, as well) but ideal for stealth recordings. I tell you, security guards here don't know jack about this stuff and I could pass them off as head phones or as those protectors for your ears. My only questions are: do you get as good results as with the BMC-2's? Are they still good for loud shows like the ones I'll be taping? Is it just me or from what I've read, they aren't as versatile as the BMC-2's? Still, the idea of being such a good stealth equipment is very tempting... Are they compatible with the MZ-NH700?

FINALLY, while I'm at SP I figured I'd also add a SLIMLINE BATTERY MODULE and an ATTENUATOR for seven dollars (A440, I know you suggested to get them from another store, but I'm trying to buy everything in the same place to reduce shipping costs) just in case. Now, the battery module has different customizable options. Would you give priority to the bass roll-off option or the Dual Slider Level control one? Because if I'm not wrong the MZ-NH700 doesn't have a volume level control during performance, only when paused. Too bad this battery module is a little big, but oh well...

Well, next Monday I'm getting the MZ-NH700 and hopefully for the NIN and Dream Theater concerts I'll have the good mics. By the way, A440, are the NIN sets too long? I'm guessing 2 hours? In any case, I'm planning on always taking 3 1GB discs... What about you, greenmachine? What stuff do you tape? Do you like Bad Religion? Germany is one of their solid fan bases and I have a lot of very good recordgings from Deutchesland.

[reefbeef]

These models are much smaller. I use the SPSB-6 (the other one wasn't out at the time)

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-SPSB-6

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/.../item/SP-SPSB-9

I have bass roll-off on mine but always use the lowest setting possible. I plan on ordering it without a bass roll off soon.

Also, I would advise some trial runs at home recording from your stereo. Practice setting the levels and going through the menu's as A440 stated above. This can be difficult once the adrenaline starts pumping and the spliffs start burning pre-show.

Good luck.

Edited November 11, 2005 by reefbeef

[Neurus]

Thanks for joining, reefbeef!

Yeah, that keychain style super mini battery module sounds like a hell of an option for stealth recording. Actually, I discovered that one just after I had posted my last message. My only concern though is that unlike the rest of the battery modules, this one powers with 12 volts. For some reason I always read people referring to up to 9 volts battery modules but I'm not sure what the reason is. Could a higher voltage than say 10 volts tamper with this kind of mics? By the way, what do you think of those Low Noise in-ear binaural microphones?

Oh yeah, about practicing in advance... Definitely! As i mentioned before, I'm a little bit tight with schedules (I still don't know if all the equipment will arrive in time for the first big gig) but at least I'll make sure I arrive early enough to check the local bands and do some testing with them, so that I can also track down the "sweet" spot of the venue.

[reefbeef]

The added voltage should only increase the performance of the mics. I haven't used 'in ear' binaurals, but have used regular binaural mics on clips. They were Core-sound's Low cost binaurals (which I believe use the same Panasonic capsules as SP's binaurals):

http://www.core-sound.com/mics/1.php

Then I upgraded to an older version of these (see the description of these mics for a good answer to your 10V question):

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-9

Oh, and I don't think u need an attenuator - that's only for old Sony MD recorders that didn't have mic sensitivity 'Hi' and 'Low' options. Also, don't need it if going 'Line In' with battery module.

Edited November 12, 2005 by reefbeef

[greenmachine]

In-ear microphones, while using the same mic elements, can sound very different because of the coloring effect of the pinnae and are said to be compatible with headphone playback only. Personally i prefer to have the mics near, but not in the ears, facing forward (mounted to the rim of glasses). This avoids the coloring effect while still using the HRTF for better channel separation than collar-clipping and makes it better suitable for loudspeaker playback, although some corrections still might be required.

You don't need bass-roll-off or attenuation / level control on your battery module, low frequency amplitude can be corrected via software afterwards with much more predictable results. Levels with the nh700 can be adjusted during recording as long as you choose manual levels.

Although most electret mics are designed for voltages up to 10 volts, 12 propably won't harm them either because of the voltage-lowering characteristic of the bias resistor - but these specialized batteries can be hard to find and expensive.

I enjoy recording both unamplified acoustic instrumental music and 'the harder stuff', although Bad Religion is a little too simplistic and straight-forward for my personal taste.

Edited November 12, 2005 by greenmachine