A Couple of Questions About SonicStage 3.4

[Elar]

Kurisu,

Thank you for your informative intro to Sonic Stage v 3.4. I am an infrequent and unknowledgeable user of my Hi-MD Walkman Portable MD Recorder MZ-RH910. I purchased this recoreder the first day it was released from Sony April 1, 2005 and immediately used it with a microphone to record many school class lectures (on Classical Chinese Medicine and therapeutic Medical Qigong forms during 2005. I installed Sonic Stage v 3.0 and spent 3 days of my time trying to:

1)load a few 2-5 hour lectures into Sonic Stage My Library, and

2)then burn to a CD, and

3)save as a .wav file for sharing with other students in my classes.

I wanted to be able to share also a library of about thirty 80 minute Hi-MD discs I had recorded (on a borrowed old model Sony MD recorder RZ-700(?) in China to share with a student who was doing her thesis on the topics of those lectures. I found, to my dismay that I couldn't do that in that I could not upload more than once from my MZ RH910 to my computer. I want to be able to share with class mates, but even with the proprietary compression of Sonic Stage, I found I couldn't fit one lecture onto one audio CD. I don't understand mp3 technology, and whether I should get a DVD burner so I can fit at least one lecture and potentially many more lectures per DVD, or many without too much management difficulty of the many 3-5 minute voice tracks I lay in while recording so I can play back and transcribe easily.

My current situation:

I am sitting on many discs of recorded information. I ran into the above described limitations on Sonic Stage 3.0 I received with my purchase of the MZ RH910 in April, 2005, and was just now about to download Sonic Stage 3.3 that was announced by you/MD Forum in November, 2005 through email, and found out that there is now a Sonic Stage v3.4.

When I went to uninstall Sonic Stage 3.0 as you suggested, there wasnt any uninstall Sonic Stage in the Sonic Stage folder of my programs folders to help with that.

Immediate short term Questions to get me going on sharing my lectures:

1a) What does DRM mean ?

1) How do I uninstall Sonic Stage 3.0 if they didn't provide a utility to do that with their bundle of files that came with the software?

2) Will my Sonic Stage My Library of already uploaded lectures (about 3 lectures worth that was my trial foray into the deep woods of Mini Disc Recording) be retained even when I uninstall Sonic Stage 3.0 software?

3)Without any Sonic Stage presence on my hard drive, will I be able to download Sonic Stage v.3.4 to my computer?

4) How should I as an intelligent person, but with limited audio technical experience approach the dual project I have to both be able to:

a)upload and listen to my Hi-Md recorded lectures through the convenience and accessibility of my computer media player software

b)Share files through email or other alternatives with my classmates.

5)I understand .wav files are fundamental/generic, but they are so large that they are difficult to store and share- how can I compress them with a standardized technology so that I can either send them, or provide a convenient disc to my classmates that they can use with compatible standard compression and de-compression technology to have access to them.

6) What are OMA Files referred to in today's 11:09 post hkey_barker.

Are there local people in my community (Portland, Oregon) that you can recommend to help me complete this project I started in August 2004 once and for all when I borrowed a classmates' Sony RZ 700 that she had never used because she couldn't figure out how to use it and took it to China and recorded over 30-40 hours of lectures using a microphone on Hi MD discs? - I'd like someone to set it up for me as well as teach me how to manage future recording projects, as well as music projects I would like to pursue.

Thank you for you attention to this long post,

Elar

[dex Otaku]

1a) What does DRM mean ?

Digital Rights Management.

In the fantasy world of the RIAA, what DRM means is that the record company and not the end user retains control of how any given track can be copied and/or distributed.

In Sony's world [as with most current commercial forms of DRM], DRM means lock-in; you're stuck in a closed system, depending on one company's software to store, play, and copy tracks to a player, and depending on that company's players. As SonicStage [sS] has progressed, Sony's DRM has relaxed considerably.

Generally speaking, successful DRM means the inability to make 1:1 copies of things digitally beyond a certain number of generations or outside of the closed system of a single piece of software and line of hardware. Any methods that are not already allowed by library software like SS involve either transcoding [converting to another format digitally] or copying in realtime via analogue means [the "old way" of doing things, as with tape recorders]. In either case, some form of generation loss takes place, meaning the copy you end up with is degraded to some degree compared to the original it was copied from.

For curiosity's sake, trying googling [with the quotes] "analog hole" or "analogue hole".

1) How do I uninstall Sonic Stage 3.0 if they didn't provide a utility to do that with their bundle of files that came with the software?

Back up your library using the SS backup tool [it's in the menus], download the v3.4 installer, and it should remove the old version automatically during the installation process.

2) Will my Sonic Stage My Library of already uploaded lectures (about 3 lectures worth that was my trial foray into the deep woods of Mini Disc Recording) be retained even when I uninstall Sonic Stage 3.0 software?

I have upgraded SS numerous times on my own machine and never had it eat the existing library or cause issues surrounding "invalid rights info", but I seem to be in a relative minority of users who will actually confess to having had SS usually work properly for them [most people only say anything about SS when they have issues with it not working].

If all goes nominally, upgrading SS should not harm your library.

That said, I have always run the SS backup tool before upgrading, even though I've never found it necessary to restore the backup afterwards. Better safe than sorry.

3)Without any Sonic Stage presence on my hard drive, will I be able to download Sonic Stage v.3.4 to my computer?

Yes. That is the usual purpose of installers - to install something, or if necessary to upgrade what's already there.

4) How should I as an intelligent person, but with limited audio technical experience approach the dual project I have to both be able to:

a)upload and listen to my Hi-Md recorded lectures through the convenience and accessibility of my computer media player software

b)Share files through email or other alternatives with my classmates.

5)I understand .wav files are fundamental/generic, but they are so large that they are difficult to store and share- how can I compress them with a standardized technology so that I can either send them, or provide a convenient disc to my classmates that they can use with compatible standard compression and de-compression technology to have access to them.

First, I'd suggest reading through The HiMD uploading FAQ [which will be updated to reflect changes to SS 3.4 shortly].

Once you have converted your recordings to WAV, you can do with them as you will - including editing them, backing them up asis, and transcoding them to another format that consumes less space.

WAV files themselves should be playable in literally any media player supported on the Windows platform.

There are numerous other formats that consume less space than PCM WAV, though. What format to choose depends on several things including your space requirements, accessibility/format ubiquity, whether you need the original recording saved without quality loss, and if the answer to that is no - sound quality preferences.

Many of us here choose to store our "masters" in lossless formats such as FLAC or WavPack [both free/open-source], and even WMA lossless. The advantage with lossless formats is that you can save 30-50% of the space required to store WAV files, with no quality loss whatsoever. Tracks still end up fairly large compared to MP3s, but this tends to be the chosen method for backing up originals so that an exact copy of the source is always available for future use. Codecs for various lossless formats come as plugins for most popular audio players, or are included with them. As their use is not as widespread in general or supported natively by hardware, they do not however make ideal formats for sending to other users who are likely to want something they can simply play, rather than having to install additional software in order to do so.

For distribution, lossily-compressed formats like MP3 are far more practical. MP3 in particular may not be the best-sounding format in terms of how its losses work, but it definitely is king of the hill in terms of ubiquity - any computer newer than about 1996 [regardless of operating system] can play MP3s with the right software, most portable players support the format natively, and many newer car CD players and nearly all newer DVD players will play MP3s from CD- or DVD-Rs you make yourself.

I personally do not advise storing your master recordings in any lossy format [with the exception of cases where the original recording was in the lossy format you're wanting to back up]. The extra space used is well worth the advantage of having an exact copy of the original should the need arise to re-encode it to another format or bitrate [size/quality], and especially if you need to edit the recording later. GIGO.

I'd recommend downloading marcnet's HiMDRenderer, which will let you convert tracks directly from your SS library or from the discs themselves to MP3, FLAC, &c. This is by far the simplest method of converting tracks in your library to MP3 to send via email. marcnet has his own thread on the fora here about HiMDRenderer.

I'll leave discussion as to what the actual "best" format and settings are to someone else.

6) What are OMA Files referred to in . . .

OMA [previously OMG] files are Sony's proprietary container format for audio. These are the files that are both generated and used by SonicStage, usually encoded in some variant of ATRAC3 or ATRAC3plus.

Generally speaking, OMA files are usable only by people running SonicStage, which makes the format an extremely poor choice for distribution even though it is possible to use it for such.

. . . this project I started in August 2004 once and for all when I borrowed a classmates' Sony RZ 700 that she had never used because she couldn't figure out how to use it and took it to China and recorded over 30-40 hours of lectures using a microphone on Hi MD discs?

Side-note: those aren't HiMD discs. They're standard MD80s, and if they were recorded on an RZ700 then they are definitely not in HiMD format.

See here.

This is another thing you can use HiMDRenderer for. The only way to copy tracks from a legacy MD or MDLP recording using your portable is via the analogue route - using appropriate standard audio cabling [3.5mm male to 3.5mm male stereo, or TRS, cable], connecting the headphone out of your player to the line input on your computer's sound card, and using recording software on the computer. HiMDRenderer removes most of the hassle from doing this by controlling your player and starting/stopping recording on the computer so that the tracks on your hard disc match closely [though not perfectly] what's on the original MD.

Last things last - please don't take this as an outright admonishment, but I'd would like to point out that the threads I've linked to are stickied [i.e. very easily found] in the relevant fora.

Cheers.

[atrain]

excellently answer dex. elar, welcome, as dex said there a massive amount of archived help topics to peruse although anymore clarification may as well be done in this thread, perhaps also an update of how it went?

[Elar]

dex,

WOW ! I am very grateful for the time and care you took to answer my questions. I think I understand about 70% of it and will look to the links you included to answer further questions. I never expected that one person would address all the questions I had. I don't know that I can immediately act on your suggestions, I may consult some friends who may know more, once I have tapped the links that you included. It doesnt seem easy to access the alternatives to the .wav files and I wonder if I should just use the "Save as a .wav file feature in SS and then purchase a DVD burner and load the lectures I want to share with my classmates on them. I will keep working on the best solution, but that depends on me understanding a bit more. I hope to get there from reading your links first. Gotta go now. Thanks again, very much. Elar

[Elar]

excellently answer dex. elar, welcome, as dex said there a massive amount of archived help topics to peruse although anymore clarification may as well be done in this thread, perhaps also an update of how it went?

Hi Atrain,

Thanks for your guidance on MDF etiquette, I might have not thought to update the people who helped me as to my progress. I understand some of what's written and the MDF links/archives will help further clarify, before I can execute the shorthand parts (to me) (I am illiterate in the MD and audio language, so I appreciate the descriptions, for example, of the cord that dex described, this takes away one layer of mystery.

Thank you for helping myself and others who have these basic questions but are not real fascile using the utilities built into this forum, an accessible library of tribal and technical wisdom about sharing information and music

[A440]

I wonder if I should just use the "Save as a .wav file feature in SS and then purchase a DVD burner

No need for giant files.

Assuming the initial recording was decent quality, lectures will sound find as mp3s. Once you have uploaded the files to SonicStage, then use HiMDRenderer to make mp3 copies of the files you want. Only your Hi-MD files will upload--the ones from the R700 need to be rerecorded in realtime. HiMDRenderer will make that a little easier, too.

You could also Save to .wav and use dbpoweramp, which is in Downloads. But Marcnet has made it even easier. Send him some $$ if you like the program.

Edited February 3, 2006 by A440

[dex Otaku]

I didn't make any steadfast recommendations above, but I'm with A440 on this. HiMDRenderer will do what you need in a single step [though I'd note that titling the tracks on the recorder using SS beforehand is a good idea], and for lectures, MP3 exceeds the quality you really need while giving you the smaller filesizes you want in order to give copies to your students or colleagues.

[Elar]

"though I'd note that titling the tracks on the recorder using SS beforehand is a good idea"

I place tracks in lectures frequently (about every 5 minutes or so) without respect to content, only for purposes of convenience in transcribing the lectures. What would be the reason for titling the tracks, ie, would they get mixed up when uploading if they weren't either numbered or titled?

Thanks,

Elar

[Elar]

No need for giant files.

Assuming the initial recording was decent quality, lectures will sound find as mp3s. Once you have uploaded the files to SonicStage, then use HiMDRenderer to make mp3 copies of the files you want. Only your Hi-MD files will upload--the ones from the R700 need to be rerecorded in realtime. HiMDRenderer will make that a little easier, too.

You could also Save to .wav and use dbpoweramp, which is in Downloads. But Marcnet has made it even easier. Send him some $$ if you like the program.

Thanks A440,

If I upload the files to Sonic Stage, then use Hi-MDRenderer to make mp3 copies, will I be able to play the mp3's on both my RH 910 MD recorder/player as well as say, on a fellow student's mp3 player?

Is Hi-ME Renderer a stand-alone s/w or a feature of SS 3.4? I am not used to getting around the Forum and fear getting overwhelmed if I did a search, as I am piecing together so many threads of info from both this topic, and the 3.4 debut conversations going on.

Also, I have about 30 hours of lectures I recorded on the RZ700 that were done on 80 minute discs that say "Hi-MD" on them, and now understand from this topic's feedback that even so, the RZ 700 (I only guessed at the model #, because I borrowed it in 2004 and vaguely remembered that it might have been 700. -Thanks for your patience.

I am pretty scattered with too much to do besides this project, and have perenially (since 2004 China recordings) put this project off. A month ago I finally put the SS v 3.0 and downloaded current Hi-MD files from a more recent lecture in 2006 and as a first time user encountered the DRM problem and burning audio CD's was proved impossible because one lecture wouldn't even fit on an Audio CD and when burning from SS 3.0, it skipped over some tracks that wouldn't fit and took the next smaller, fit-able tracks, which is useless for a linear voice lecture, which is the only choice seemingly doable (re: my mp3 question in the 1st paragraph above.

I'd better stop here with any more questions to not confuse matters.

Thanks,

Elar

Hi Again A440,

I just opened and printed out the FAQ on uploading files that you co-authored,, sorry to have asked questions before looking at this that may be answered by the FAQ. One thing, don't know whether it has been updated for SS 3.4 but I will probably get most of my questions answered there even if not yet updated, at any rate, I will have more informed questions once I read it.

Thanks,

Elar

[dex Otaku]

"though I'd note that titling the tracks on the recorder using SS beforehand is a good idea"

I place tracks in lectures frequently (about every 5 minutes or so) without respect to content, only for purposes of convenience in transcribing the lectures. What would be the reason for titling the tracks, ie, would they get mixed up when uploading if they weren't either numbered or titled?

Well, no. I find that the default naming scheme in SS is not always the most intelligible one to use though, especially if you're exporting as WAV and converting between other formats in something else.

For lectures, I would be bound to use a variant of my own naming scheme:

year-month-day - lecturer [or lecture title] - track# in that lecture

Which for the April 24, 2003 Barbara Frum lecture by Bernard Lewis, would end up like this:

2003-04-24 - Bernard Lewis-What History Teaches about Islam - 01 ..

2003-04-24 - Bernard Lewis-What History Teaches about Islam - 02 ..

&c. [whether to include more full info than this is up to you, this is how I would likely shorten lecture names]

By no means am I saying this is the "right" way to do things, either, it's just one of many possible ways. What's best for you depends on how you like to organise things. I like things to be immediately obvious as to what they are by filename/containing folder. Read it once, you know -exactly- what it is, when it was from, who it's of, what part it is, &c.

Using filenames that are way too long can run into problems, though, so abbreviations and choosing only the most pertinent info to include in the name is important. Files when written to Joliet [iSO or UDF] CD-R or DVD-R are shortened to 64-character names, for example.

The real advantage of titling on the original disc first is that when you upload it, the filename SS uses will be the title. When you export to WAV, the title passes on as the WAV filename. Trying to guess tracknames when making mp3s of it is unnecessary because the track titles are the filenames and contain all the pertinent info needed for tags already. Programs that can intelligently create tags, like foobar2000 and MP3BookHelper, can be told how to read your tag format and convert the filenames into full tags in a single step, as well.

In the end, it's optional, but I feel that titling at the source before uploading means less possible confusion later, especially if moving between different file formats.

[Elar]

For lectures, I would be bound to use a variant of my own naming scheme:

2003-04-24 - Bernard Lewis-What History Teaches about Islam - 01 ..

By no means am I saying this is the "right" way to do things, eitheIn the end, it's optional, but I feel that titling at the source before uploading means less possible confusion later, especially if moving between different file formats.

[A440]

If I were recording a lecture I would use Hi-SP or even Hi-LP to keep the files small, and Auto trackmarking to make five-minute chunks. Then I'd upload into SonicStage which would have them titled like date stamps--2006-02-15 00:44 etc. Then I would add to the first date stamp so it read 2006-02-15 00:44PROFESSOR-LECTURE and I'd know that all the ones I uploaded afterward were the rest of the lecture in order. But I'm lazier than Dex.

Hi-MDRenderer has nothing to do with SonicStage. It's a standalone program created and constantly updated by Marcnet, and you can get it from downloads.

When you have a big .wav file, you can use CDWave

http://www.milosoftware.com/cdwave/

to cut it into smaller tracks--it suggests where it thinks the breaks are, and you can take or leave what it suggests. That way you don't have a humongous file to try to cram onto CD.

Once you have a .wav file you have no need for SonicStage and all its quirks. Use something else--Winamp, Windows Media Player, Nero, Real, iTunes--to burn the wavs to CD.

[dex Otaku]

It seems the point got missed entirely, by everyone.

Point about titling the tracks, even if it's just with a simple "0101" group group one, track one, is that you can always tell they're in order. Period.

It really doesn't matter that you use auto trackmarking to skip quickly between sections. What matters is keeping the sections in order, and your being able to identify them as being in order.

SS's current default naming scheme, for short tracks that upload at a rate higher than one track per minute, will result in duplicate track names. Unless you think to enable the column for "time/date imported" and sort by that criteria [the only one that will give proper track order without titling files distinctly], there is no way to keep them in the correct sort order.

Ergo, title the tracks distinctly [every track title is completely different from every other track title], and numerically in order, and you will know instantly at a glance whether the album in SS is in the right order, and further, whether the tracks are in order on any disc you write them out to later.

But hey, your choice. If you like titles that don't sort, tracks that have duplicate names, and discs full of things in the wrong order, that's great.

Sorry for being snippy, I am having a rather bad night. Apologies for directing my internal nastiness at you.

[Shozzer]

I much prefer to record lectures without track marks and upload the single file (having titled it on the MD player via Sonic Stage). I then convert to WAV and use Nero to insert track marks (having stripped out the pauses for continuity) and then burn to CD. If I want to listen to the lecture on MD I can always copy the CD (with track marks) back to MD. I find this easier than messing around uploading a number of tracks.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Shozzer

[ozpeter]

SS's current default naming scheme, for short tracks that upload at a rate higher than one track per minute, will result in duplicate track names. Unless you think to enable the column for "time/date imported" and sort by that criteria [the only one that will give proper track order without titling files distinctly], there is no way to keep them in the correct sort order.

In SS3.4, that won't work if the files are short, as more than once per second can be imported (I've just tried with ten tracks each of a few seconds length - they all have the same "date imported" value except for one). Better to use the "File Path" column, as the filename given there now begins with a three digit sequence number, which does give you an absolute means of providing correct order both within SS and externally.

[dex Otaku]

Better to use the "File Path" column, as the filename given there now begins with a three digit sequence number, which does give you an absolute means of providing correct order both within SS and externally.

With the most recent version of SS naming, yes, this is the case. I am too well-accustomed to developing elaborate workarounds, it seems.

[ozpeter]

Indeed this whole mindisc business is getting a bit boring - less and less to find elegant workarounds for! Blinkin' Sony, spoiling our fun....