Once and for all NETMD USB upload to PC...?

[ausraider3]

Hi,

Newbee here...

First, thankyou to all the moderators and contributors who provide this webservice to all us MD users.It gives us 'Children of the NetMD' hope.

Sigh....I won't SonyRanty.I'm too tired.

I'm sure its all been said before anyhow.

Guys, I'd just like once and for all to confirm a couple of things, if you would be so kind.

1st.

This thread has nothing whatsoever to do with any HI-MD Format whatsoever.

2nd.

This thread has nothing even in the slightest inkling to do with Transfering tracks/files/OMG's FROM A COMPUTER via USB/Digital/lineout/etc. to any type of MD device whatsoever.

3rd.

Now I know all the buzz about doing it the digital/analogue Real Time way - BUT!.....

Is there any known way - using any Software App what-so-ever(incl. SS 3.3) - to Upload Data via the USB port/thingy/whatever that they gave us on our NETMD's - to a reasonably Spec-ed PC...?

Section 2

I am presuming the simple answer is:

As far as NETMD Devices are concerned:

THERE IS NO WAY ON EARTH TO UPLOAD ANY AUDIO DATA FILES FROM A USB EQUIPPED NETMD DEVICE TO A COMPUTER.

So......

I am left wondering....

After all the trouble Sony went to, installing a USB interface on my MZ-910 NETMD, there is no way to upload from the MZ-910 via the USB to a computer.

Why is this so...?

Is it entirely impossible because USB can't handle the format or a PC can't recognise something or other?

Or is it simply because, Sony will not make available the code, or a decent straightfoward App. with which to do a good uploading job via USB available for NETMD models..?

In other words, could it be possible..?...if Sony were to take an active interest in supporting NETMD customers who were lead to believe via the packaging and sales blurb that they were getting a true and good MD to PC via USB interface system?

The Rep.s immortal line: "Oh! and you can hook it up to your computer!"

Y'know, this reminds me of the Roland VS1680 .wav to PC scandal.

Not only will Roland not produce a utility for converting 1680 Format to .wav for loading into PC Editor- even charging an amount for the software - but they obstinately refuse to make available the codec for the 1680, despite the 1680 being well out of potential buyers radar.

Its corporate greed to the nth.

So, though it may not be possible because Sony fail to support....

But could it be possible if Sony did support developement of a NETMD USB upload Software system..?

This is what I want to know.

Are Sony big meanies - or is there some real technical-(not commercial) issue that is impossible to resolve?

Future Sony purchases of my will be decided by this answer.

Ausraider3

Edited February 22, 2006 by ausraider3

[zerodB]

AFAIK, there are technical limitations within the hardware itself that prevent PC uploading with NetMD. It's not possible, and NetMD was not ever designed with this in mind.

Obviously there was demand for it at the time, hence HiMD today. No Sony aren't big meanies, but their short-sightedness has provided some frustration with many users.

[atrain]

you could always try the real time but assisted transfer with marcnet's himd renderrer. search around the forums for more detail

[dex Otaku]

Future Sony purchases of my will be decided by this answer.

So - what you're saying is basically this:

Any company that produces any hardware must guarantee compatibility and interoperability with all future formats and media, even those completely unforeseen at the time of the format's original design.

MD was designed as an audio format, to be used with SP/DIF and analogue connections. SCMS was the limit of DRM at that point in time, which I might add was 14+ years ago [not the date of introduction, but of format development]. It was NOT designed with computers in mind, not at all. NetMD itself was pretty much a hack of the original design, with limited DRM that quite honestly relied on the fact that uploading was impossible.

Given the fleeting nature of "state of the art," I'd say that MD's continued-development-life of about 10-12 years [the point after which I at least consider the format to be deprecated, since they halted further development, but not support, of both the legacy hardware and codecs around 2001 or 2002] was not unreasonable. Technology, particularly in the worlds of storage media, connectivity, personal computers, and audio codec design has progressed a long way since MD came out in 1992.

I think it's fairly ridiculous that anyone should expect that the format be supported indefinitely, especially if current technology that isn't even state-of-the-art itself surpasses the capabilities of the format in question quite easily by several orders of magnitude.

I do not however find it unreasonable that customers ask for an upgrade path [i.e. the ability to upload recordings asis and play them on other formats by the same company, or at least to be able to upload the data in an open format so they can move to any other medium more or less unrestricted] so they can move beyond the obsolete format with fair ease.

I'll reiterate something I've said a number of times on this board already:

Given the recent changes in SS's handling of DRM with HiMD [i.e. allowing removal of copy protection, allowing multiple uploads, allowing conversion to WAV of optical-sourced recordings, allowing of ripping without copy protection to begin with, &c.] there is no longer any supportable rationale for excluding digital-domain uploading of legacy MD / MDLP-format recordings to PCs, whether that be with future netMD units [unlikely since it appears the development of such has already ended as I mentioned above] or with HiMD units [more likely since the format itself is still basically in its infancy and has not been officially axed at this point].

Point being: at the very least, I feel that Sony should provide an upgrade path that will let users copy their legacy recordings digitally with as little generation loss as possible via USB. Some of the practical parts for doing this exist already: SS with upload features, and HiMD with bi-directional transfers and backward-compatibility.

Implementing this is a matter of doing the following:

* including this functionality in future units, most likely HiMD, by writing firmware that supports it

* possibly patching the firmware of older units, also most likely HiMD, to support it

* writing the relevant modules for SS

If MD had been released as a more open format, with basic hardware designs and audio codecs basically free of licensing costs, I'm pretty sure it would have proliferated much farther than it has. As reality stands, MD was basically a closed, proprietary format. Some companies did license the technology to develop their own versions of hardware [and that kind of licensing basically implies that they make no significant changes during development that would break compatibility].

The end result of this was that the only company who could extend the format's capabilities was Sony. Their interest in doing so with a format that actually shows very little future promise compared to other current media actually makes the development of netMD at such a late date fairly surprising to me.

To expect any further extension of the original format is basically wishful thinking. To go back to the 8-track analogy - the made stereo 8-tracks and quadraphonic ones as well. By your logic, they would have been obligated to make 8-track digital, extend its playing times, &c.

Final point being: there's a time to accept that something is dead [which MD, by all indications, is], and let go of it; hopefully the makers of the format will also provide a bridge to ensure that content stored on their media can be moved elsewhere before it disappears completely. They are not, however, actually under any obligation to do so.

[Sparky191]

ausraider3 - the answer is simple. Sony is a business, and theres no money in doing what you are asking.

[adagio]

I think it's fairly ridiculous that anyone should expect that the format be supported indefinitely, especially if current technology that isn't even state-of-the-art itself surpasses the capabilities of the format in question quite easily by several orders of magnitude.

Final point being: there's a time to accept that something is dead [which MD, by all indications, is], and let go of it; hopefully the makers of the format will also provide a bridge to ensure that content stored on their media can be moved elsewhere before it disappears completely. They are not, however, actually under any obligation to do so.

While the points made are well argued, the quotes above are a slight distortion of the truth. There is, as far as I can determine, no HiMD deck. The deck which I have - JE780 - is still on sale in UK and is the best solution that I have found for time shift listening to FM radio broadcasts. The BBC allow me (as with video recording) to make recordings of their copyright material for my own private use. I cannot upgrade to NetMD for this purpose. It is a matter of great frustration that while I can transfer at high speed from my PC, I cannot go the other way round.

If, because of hardware limitations, it is impossible to upload then I will have to accept my lot. I have, however, never seen that stated authoritatively and unequivocally.

[Sparky191]

What so special about the JE780 that suits time shift listening? I would have thought any MP3, HIMD or CD unit would be as useful.

Could you not use a HiMD to record, upload it to PC then transfer it back to SP on a normal MD to listen via the JE780?

[adagio]

What so special about the JE780 that suits time shift listening? I would have thought any MP3, HIMD or CD unit would be as useful.

Could you not use a HiMD to record, upload it to PC then transfer it back to SP on a normal MD to listen via the JE780?

It has a timer recording function!! Where is the HiMD with that facility? Where is the CD (no LP anyway) or MP3(quality?) recorder?

[Sparky191]

What has a timer got to do with time shifting. I'm just curious because it sounds interesting. I thought time shifting is a feature use while recording so you can listen to the start of a broadcast while the end of it is still being recorded. Can the JE780 do that?

As far as I know. HiMD doesn't have a time recorder. CD recorders I don't know. I think some Hard Disk MP3 players do. I'd have to check. Some have limitations on bit rate. I'll come back to you on that.

[adagio]

What has a timer got to do with time shifting. I'm just curious because it sounds interesting. I thought time shifting is a feature use while recording so you can listen to the start of a broadcast while the end of it is still being recorded. Can the JE780 do that?

Sorry if you misunderstood me. In UK time-shifted listening/viewing usually means recording a programme so that you can hear/see it later. It is what is most commonly done with VCRs.

[Sparky191]

Seems to be common use now because of Podcasts. I'm confusing it with pasuse live TV you get on Sky etc. After some searching it seems like some CDR's do have timed record. Though I haven't found any specific's on it.

Since you use a PC to upload the recording. Why not just record on the PC directly?

[adagio]

Since you use a PC to upload the recording. Why not just record on the PC directly?

My stereo system with FM Tuner + MiniDisc + CD etc is in the lounge. My PC is upstairs. I have an MZ-RH10 connected to my PC which for transfers PC --> NetMD works wonderfully well. I could, I suppose, buy another tuner. Don't suggest I buy a TV/Radio card as I don't have a TV and would have to buy a licence! If you know of an FM Radio only card (or USB device) I should be glad to hear of it. I have not succeeded in finding one. I don't want to upload everything but sometimes I like to divide a recording into tracks for more convenient listening.

[Sparky191]

Didn't realise you can't get a Radio only card. If I see one I'll post back.

[dex Otaku]

While the points made are well argued, the quotes above are a slight distortion of the truth. There is, as far as I can determine, no HiMD deck. The deck which I have - JE780 - is still on sale in UK and is the best solution that I have found for time shift listening to FM radio broadcasts. The BBC allow me (as with video recording) to make recordings of their copyright material for my own private use. I cannot upgrade to NetMD for this purpose. It is a matter of great frustration that while I can transfer at high speed from my PC, I cannot go the other way round.

They're not distortions of the truth; they're my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do understand your frustration, but could also point out that you could do timeshift recording with your computer, or any HiFi VCR [AFM audio with a decent VTR exceeds the quality of the source you're recording from]. Not saying that these are actually better options for you, simply that they're other options. Of course, your desire is to upload, so the VCR doesn't help with that, but timeshifting with your computer seems a pretty simple solution to all of your problems, from where I'm standing.

As for a HiMD deck, my opinion there [and I sincerely hope to be proven wrong on this] - Sony's view is likely that the market is simply too small to justify the deveopment and manufacturing costs. Given the physical size of decks, shipping adds to the incentives for retailers not to stock them even if they did exist. Given that, mail-order and online sales would probably be the only feasible route to market them, and the cost would either be swallowed by Sony [at a probable loss per unit to keep prices low enough to actually interest anyone] or directly by the customers [making prices unreasonable and unreachable by many if not most of the customers who would want one].

If, because of hardware limitations, it is impossible to upload then I will have to accept my lot. I have, however, never seen that stated authoritatively and unequivocally.

I have never seen Sony themselves state it so, but I would like to point out the myriad users such as yourself who have realised from experience that it can't be done. That seems pretty unequivocal to me.

I believe it was The Low Volta or perhaps A440 who put it best: netMD's DRM relied upon the fact that uploading was impossible; I agree with this - the inability to upload was an inherent part of netMD's design. It was not an oversight or an accident. They made it that way on purpose.

That said, and to repeat myself again - given the current state of DRM with SS and HiMD, Sony no longer have any excuse for not providing the ability to upload MD/LP recordings. I sincerely hope they include this functionality in any future HiMD models, but that is yet to be seen.

[Sparky191]

...If you know of an FM Radio only card (or USB device) I should be glad to hear of it. ...

This was suggested to me...

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/...shark/index.php

[adagio]

This was suggested to me...

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/...shark/index.php

Thanks very much - could be just what I want.

[Sparky191]

Bit pricey for me. With del to europe its over 100 bucks. That said if it worked you could store the recordings on the PC and transfer them to MD or HiMD as required. I never get to listen to the radio mainly because theres nothing good on when I have access to a radio. But its something I'd like to do more of. If I could time shift recordings that would be excellent.

[1kyle]

My stereo system with FM Tuner + MiniDisc + CD etc is in the lounge. My PC is upstairs. I have an MZ-RH10 connected to my PC which for transfers PC --> NetMD works wonderfully well. I could, I suppose, buy another tuner. Don't suggest I buy a TV/Radio card as I don't have a TV and would have to buy a licence! If you know of an FM Radio only card (or USB device) I should be glad to hear of it. I have not succeeded in finding one. I don't want to upload everything but sometimes I like to divide a recording into tracks for more convenient listening.

You can get DAB radio cards for PC's -- find them in any PC world etc.

All the "normal" BBC radio programs are on DAB together with a lot of extra one's and coverage in most of the UK is pretty good.

Bit rates are lower than I would like --but for typical speech etc radio programs are more than adequate and better quality than "Podcasts".

Cheers

-K

Edited March 6, 2006 by 1kyle

[Sparky191]

Do they come with time shifting recording software?

[adagio]

Bit pricey for me. With del to europe its over 100 bucks.

Take a look at:-

http://tinyurl.com/kq6nt

[1kyle]

Do they come with time shifting recording software?

That I don't know --

As they are on a computer it would be fairly easy I suppose to just either boot the computer at the time you want with a simple timer switch and switch it off again at the time you want to stop recording.

Connect your MD to the same switch as well if it doesn't have a timer. However most decent MD decks have time recording option so that end of it shouldn't be a problem. My MDS-JB980 certainly has a timer feature on the front panel.

On a Linux system it's even easier --you can schedule a job (Crontab) to start and end at specific times --Windows might have something like this --not sure. Google on Windows Job Scheduler or something like that and set it up to start playing your device at the time you want to start recording.

Cheers

-K

[adagio]

That I don't know --

As they are on a computer it would be fairly easy I suppose to just either boot the computer at the time you want with a simple timer switch and switch it off again at the time you want to stop recording.

Programs like Audio Recorder Pro can do timed records of the audio stream in either wav or mp3. Does not have programme selection though as radio SHARK.

Not keen on DAB. We live in a marginal area for DAB reception but get very good interference free FM. Since mostly I record music quality poor although BBC Radio 3 said to be ok at 192khz.

[Sparky191]

That I don't know --

As they are on a computer it would be fairly easy I suppose to just either boot the computer at the time you want with a simple timer switch and switch it off again at the time you want to stop recording.

Connect your MD to the same switch as well if it doesn't have a timer. However most decent MD decks have time recording option so that end of it shouldn't be a problem. My MDS-JB980 certainly has a timer feature on the front panel.....

That seems a medieval way of doing it.

[1kyle]

That seems a medieval way of doing it.

"Necessity is the mother of invention". -- Of course I'm sure there are plenty of better methods -- but when you haven't got all the necessary bits and pieces then you can sometimes achieve what you want to do by going back to "First Principles" and making do with what you have rather than not doing it just because you "haven't got all the components" you need.

If I really needed a recording and this was the only way I could do it with the equipment I had at hand then the choice is use this "Dinosaur" method and still get the recording or pine for new equipment and miss the recording.

As a photographer I've often had to adapt "Dinosaur" technology to picture taking situations where I could grab the shot -- if I don't get the shot I don't eat !!.

I'm not having a go at you -- it's just that I've seen so many situations where people just give up when they don't have ALL the right pieces rather than try and see if they can make what they have work --it's good practice using your ingenuity -- more fun than you think and you might even enjoy the satisfaction of having suceeded where others would have just given up.

Cheers

-K

[Sparky191]

To be precise it only partially achieves what you want. But I know what you mean. I recorded my nieces recital with a 10yr old PC mic and a HIMD the other night.