RECORDING MY BAND'S GIGS

[jonmarcus]

Just a quick question having read through much of the "Live Recording" section.

I play drums in a large 14 piece jazz funk band and have the MZ-NH900. We often play gigs with a full mixing desk and I either have mics on all my drums or a mic on the bass drum plus a couple of overheads. We may also do gigs from time to time in smaller venues without amplication/mixing desk but this tends to be quite rare.

My question is whether, for the bigger gigs, to record using line in from the mixing desk or to use my Sony ECM-MS907 digital microphone plus headphone attentuator to record the sound in the room.

I guess using line in from the mixing desk would be less fiddly but I am keen to try the mic. Is the only real issue to consider the silent trackmarks that are created if you use line in?

Also can someone recommend a good line in cable to use.

Thanks

[A440]

Your band should be loud enough to record via Mic-Battery Box-Line-In.

The attenuator into Mic-In will do a decent job, but if you're doing this professionally, then spend $50 on this battery module:

http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmcbmminminc.htm

As for a Line-in cable, just get one with the right connectors, preferably made by a company you've heard of for the sake of reliability. Sony makes them, Philips, etc. I tend to believe all the super-duper-cable claims are placebo effect.

Make a couple of recordings and compare. Line-in from the mixer will be clean and sterile, with no room ambience; the mic recording will be less focused but might sound like more fun.

There would have to be silence between songs for track marks to be inserted with line-in. I hope people are applauding in between.

You may also want to upgrade your mic. The ECM 907 has limited bass response. Compared to just that mic, you might be happier with the sound from the mixer via Line-In--it will have some bottom to it.

By the way, it's not a digital microphone--that's one of those sleazy advertising claims. Maybe it said DIGITAL ready. Like any other analog microphone, it can be used with digital recorders. No big deal: your mic input is analog anyway, and line-in can be analog or (with an optical cable, from a digital output) digital.

Edited March 5, 2006 by A440

[jonmarcus]

Your band should be loud enough to record via Mic-Battery Box-Line-In.

The attenuator into Mic-In will do a decent job, but if you're doing this professionally, then spend $50 on this battery module:

http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmcbmminminc.htm

As for a Line-in cable, just get one with the right connectors, preferably made by a company you've heard of for the sake of reliability. Sony makes them, Philips, etc. I tend to believe all the super-duper-cable claims are placebo effect.

Make a couple of recordings and compare. Line-in from the mixer will be clean and sterile, with no room ambience; the mic recording will be less focused but might sound like more fun.

There would have to be silence between songs for track marks to be inserted with line-in. I hope people are applauding in between.

You may also want to upgrade your mic. The ECM 907 has limited bass response. Compared to just that mic, you might be happier with the sound from the mixer via Line-In--it will have some bottom to it.

By the way, it's not a digital microphone--that's one of those sleazy advertising claims. Maybe it said DIGITAL ready. Like any other analog microphone, it can be used with digital recorders. No big deal: your mic input is analog anyway, and line-in can be analog or (with an optical cable, from a digital output) digital.

Thanks v much - really useful. Although I'm not doing professionally I will still consider the battery box idea. I'm in the UK and will look at Maplins website to see if they sell this otherwise I may have to ship from Microphone Madness.

Also note your comments on the ECM 907. As I had never recorded before, and that was the reason I bought the MZ-NH900, the ECM 907 seemed a reasonable mid price option to start with but I would be grateful to hear your suggestions for an upgrade without having to shell out mega bucks.

As for line in cable I did look at the Maplin site but not being a techy it wasn't easy to find (perhaps they don't sell it?) something that would be suitable. They just seemed to sell loads of different connectors and cables. Presumably most mixing desks would generally have the same standard jacks (left and right?)and so I would be looking for a 3.5mm jack splitting into 2 (left and right channel) phono connectors at the other end ?

Also would you recommend I buy the line in cable with connectors direct from Sony/Phillips etc...

Thanks

[The Low Volta]

as you are in the UK... consider getting a pair of greenmachine's stereo mics (and also a battery box)... he's a (very much respected) member here and makes cheap but very good mics and sells them as well

I'm using them and I have loved every recording I've made with 'em

[A440]

No need to get cables direct from Sony or Philips--Maplin should have what you need. You just have to see what your mixer output is.

Check this out for more:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=7989

Volta is right: Greenmachine's mics and battery box are your best option, since shipping from Mic Madness could be costly. But you might as well spend L3 on a Maplin VC-1 headphone volume control (attentuator) in case the battery in your battery box goes dead, or you just want a quick alternative.

[fatmuttony]

First up, a lot of what you say is fantastic. I am very much in awe of your knowledge. It's nice to know that people take the trouble to know their stuff.

Now, on to my questions:

Preamp: Will a tube pre-amp do? I live in India, and we are not exactly the best market for medium-high-end gear. We do get Behringer products easily. I was wondering if the Behrginger TUBE ULTRAGAIN MIC100 (http://www.behringer.com/MIC100/index.cfm?lang=ENG) would be a good choice to have in between the microphone and the line-in of the MD Recorder (MZ-RH710).

Microphone: What is the general guideline on which mic to use with the MD Recorder to record live music and speech? Is something like the Shure SM 57 (which, I've been told, is very versatile) a good bet? Or are there some kinds of microphones that work better than generic mics like the SM57? What characteristics should one look for? (I'm sorry if all this info already exists on another thread. PLease point me to that thread if this is the case.)

[jonmarcus]

No need to get cables direct from Sony or Philips--Maplin should have what you need. You just have to see what your mixer output is.

Check this out for more:

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=7989

Volta is right: Greenmachine's mics and battery box are your best option, since shipping from Mic Madness could be costly. But you might as well spend L3 on a Maplin VC-1 headphone volume control (attentuator) in case the battery in your battery box goes dead, or you just want a quick alternative.

Thanks very much A440 and Volta. Your help is really appreciated. I will contact Greenmachine.

[dex Otaku]

Preamp: Will a tube pre-amp do? I live in India, and we are not exactly the best market for medium-high-end gear. We do get Behringer products easily. I was wondering if the Behrginger TUBE ULTRAGAIN MIC100 (http://www.behringer.com/MIC100/index.cfm?lang=ENG) would be a good choice to have in between the microphone and the line-in of the MD Recorder (MZ-RH710).

As much as many wil disparage behringer products, there's nothing really that wrong with them. [i'd take behringer over peavey any day, actually]

Whether it will work for you really depends on how you're going to use it. Most small mic preamps like those from behringer have either XLR or 1/4" inputs .. if you want to use miniature mics like many MD/HiMD recordists do, those preamps will likely lack any inputs that will work with them [requiring 1-10V bias power for most mini electrets, for instance].

Basically, match your materiel to each other, i.e. decide what mic you want, get and use a preamp that is appropriate for that/those mics, and get appropriate cabling to run from the preamp to your recorder.

And on the performance side - even a $100 behringer mini 2-channel mixer has better specs now than quite expensive equipment had 10-15 years ago. Unless you're recording extremely quiet sources [which tend to be problematic with virtually any equipment] the performance of even rather modest preamps is likely to exceed your expectations, regardless of whether they'd satisfy purists or not.

Microphone: What is the general guideline on which mic to use with the MD Recorder to record live music and speech? Is something like the Shure SM 57 (which, I've been told, is very versatile) a good bet? Or are there some kinds of microphones that work better than generic mics like the SM57? What characteristics should one look for? (I'm sorry if all this info already exists on another thread. PLease point me to that thread if this is the case.)

Why is it that everyone always jumps for the SM57? Honestly? I've been using them since I was a child, and have ALWAYS considered them to be one of the worst-sounding microphones ever created. I spent all last week having to convince my friend who's setting up a home studio that stage vocal mics are basically inappropriate for about 90% of the jobs people try to use them for [unless of course they're all you have].

If you want a general-purpose mic, i.e. one that you want not only to do vocal recordings with, but also to do ambient recordings, close-mic instruments, &c. - then get a general-purpose mic. Buying and using a stage vocal microphone means that every single recording you make will be severely coloured by the response of the mic. SM57s for example [which are anything but "generic mics", they are quite specifically vocal mics] have a response plot that looks like someone wanted to make the most painful range in human hearing [3.5-7kHz] as loud as possible with no regard whatsoever for things like low or high end.

There are many rather-inexpensive condensor mics available which would likely suit your needs. There are also dynamics which are likely to be slightly more expensive if they have sensitivities comparable to the condensors in that range.

On the other hand, you can also do what most of us here do and buy a pair of relatively inexpensive [$30-80USD] electret condensors for portable recording.

Take a look around some musicians' or recordists' sites for ideas about mics. Some may be out of your range or unavailable where you are [a problem here in rural Canada, I can tell you] but doing a bit of research will likely help you make a more informed decision.

Suggestions:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ [there's a link there for "microphone university" with some useful info]

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/ .. an example of a commercial company that makes/sells microphones

http://www.m-audio.com/ .. another company that makes less-expensive home-studio-ish equipment including mics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone for reference

[The Low Volta]

sorry... I was plugging greenmachine's mics again, then I saw I already did here in this thread he just shouldn't make 'em that good, now I can't shut up about them

Edited March 12, 2006 by The Low Volta

[fatmuttony]

Thanks Dex and Low Volta. I had posted this question earlier, and since then I've read up a lot more about electret mics and preamps. I have a much better understanding now. Thanks for the detailed reply nonetheless. Just one more q:

Could you point me to a few good multi-purpose mics? Dynamics and otherwise?

THanks.