Seeking advice on potential purchase

[denormaliser]

I am contemplating the puchase of one "Tascam MD-301mkII" but i am totally unfamiliar with the MD format so i am hoping some of you kind strangers might set me straight about what im getting myself into.

What i know about The Minidisc and this unit is the sum total of these two pages:

http://www.tascamcontractor.com/products/MD-301mkII.html

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Tascam_MD-301.html

What i want to know is stuff like:

* What is the max sound quality i can get from the analogue outputs of this machine (eg. is minidisc 16bit/44Khz or better?)

* What does it mean when it says it is upgraded "to ATRAC 4.5"? What is that?

* Will I be able to buy any MD discs and use them with this deck (eg. 1GB discs)?

* Are there any compatibility issues with this and other MD player/recorders?

* It doesnt appear to have an output volume knob on it. What is that about?

Finally, any comments general or otherwise much appreciated.

[atrain]

what exactly are you planning on using this for? it's very old technology as as minidisc goes although no rack mount unit will be that much newer.

[denormaliser]

it will basically be used to play backing tracks for concerts (scale from britany spears in Las Vegas to your local beer garden)

Up to now we have been using 16bit 44kHz stereo .wav files played through a ProTools Digi002 rack. The sound is good enough but im looking for a cheap way to simplify the set up (ie. not have to cart a computer around and plug it in).

If minidisc comes close to that audio quality then it will be good enough. The Tascam im looking at even has balanced XLR outs which the Digi002 doesnt. that has to count for something quality-wise.

I was just reading about ATRAC in WikiPedia but there is no mention of ATRAC 4.5...

[A440]

That is an old unit that only records in SP: a compressed format (292 kbps) that puts 74 minutes on a 74-minute disc or 80 minutes on an 80-minute disc. It will not play any of the later MD formats: some more compressed, like LP2 and LP4, and some only available on Hi-MD: PCM or the compressed Hi-SP and Hi-LP.

It looks like the Tascam has an optical out but you will be recording from it in real time.

A small portable Hi-Md unit will record 90 minutes of PCM (44.1 kHZ) on a new (not compatible with older MD) 1GB disc, and upload it easily to a PC at about 3-4x via USB 1.1.

A portable Hi-MD would not have all the inputs, which you can presumably get on a mixer--just a mini stereo mic input and a mini stereo line-in jack that doubles as an optical in.

The Hi-MD units that record with both mic and line-in are:

MZ-NH1, MZ-NH700, MZ-NHF800, MZ-NH900, MZ-RH910 (and its Mac-compatible equivalent, MZ-M10) and MZ-RH10 (or Mac-compatible MZ-M100). Supposedly an RH1 is due in April.

There is an Onkyo Hi-MD deck, available in Japan, but I don't think it's a serious recording unit like the Tascam.

Hi-MD offers more fidelity and versatility. You can find MZ-NHF800 for $150 shipped on ebay. If it's getting a lot of use, get some extra remotes so you don't wear out the buttons and wheel on the unit.

Edited January 27, 2007 by A440

[xatax]

This an "original MD format" Rack mountable unit. It's old technology since it uses a simple ATRAC codec to record your music. It only records at 292 kbps at SP (Standard or Stereo Play) quality with the version 4.5 of ATRAC.

[...]

* What is the max sound quality i can get from the analogue outputs of this machine (eg. is minidisc 16bit/44Khz or better?)

Since this recorder uses ATRAC only in it's SP version, you'll get 16bit/44Khz at 292 kbps. Use the XLR outs to achieve the best analog quality of this machine.

* What does it mean when it says it is upgraded "to ATRAC 4.5"? What is that?

The most advanced version of ATRAC SP is the Type-R version. "Upgraded to ATRAC 4.5" means it uses this version of the encoder. Atrac 4.5 and Type-R sound really good, close to DAT actually, but today, other MD technologies sound better. For more info check this. Don't forget, this is a pre-MDLP and pre-HI-MD unit. So stick with the old ATRAC specifications.

* Will I be able to buy any MD discs and use them with this deck (eg. 1GB discs)?

This machine can only make use of the standard MD discs, of 60/74 and 80 minutes of capacity. 1 GB MD's are HI-MDs and incompatible with old equipment. They cannot be used with this machine.

* Are there any compatibility issues with this and other MD player/recorders?

Yes, since this machine can only record on ATRAC SP and use standard discs, they can be played in all MDLP and pre-MDLP units and certain HI-MD units but this machine can only playback standard SP on standard MD discs, therefore, no MDLP or any HI-MD bitrates can be played back on this machine.

* It doesnt appear to have an output volume knob on it. What is that about?

I don't quite understand what you mean.

Well, I don't recommend this machine unless you can find it cheap. Maybe we can give you a better option. What are your needs?

Edited March 9, 2006 by xatax

[denormaliser]

Well for starters im not concerned about how much audio i can store. i only need max 60 mins per disk. Im more interested in the quality of the audio. The signal out of this might be sent to a 2000W PA amp so MP3 quality isnt going to cut it. I need CD quality sound in stereo. Does the Tascam do that?

Also rackmountability is a factor. I dont want to have to plug and unplug anything because i often only have 15 minutes to get everything plugged in onstage and unplugged off again before and after a show.

In terms of quality, this article that i just found seems to indicate the ATRAC 4.5 actually has superior sound quality to the later MD ATRAC formats:

http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/support/faq_pdisc.html#2

(i pasted the relevant paragraph below)

To me it looks like the main benefit that later ATRAC compression brings is smaller file size (ie more songs per disk). But maybe that isnt including HiMD?? im confused on that one.

It looks like the Tascam has an optical out but you will be recording from it in real time.

Yeah im ok with that.

Hi-MD offers more fidelity and versatility.

Versatility is what i dont need. It only has to do one thing really really well.

But are you sure about the fidelity part? because if the Tascam ATRAC 4.5 version is pretty close to the PCM 44.1kHz that Hi-MD can do, then the Tascam would be the winner for me (for the other reasons listed above).

This machine can only make use of the standard MD discs, of 60/74 and 80 minutes of capacity.

I guess my concern there would be whether these blanks are still broadly available in stores??

Thanks heaps for the discussion so far! Its very useful.

From: http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/support/faq_pdisc.html#2

What is ATRAC 4.5 encoding?

ATRAC stands for Adaptive TRansform Acoustic Coding and was developed for SONY to be used in the MiniDisc format. ATRAC allows up to 80 minutes of stereo audio to be stored on a disc much smaller than a 12cm diameter CD. It achieves this by reducing the data rate to and from disc to approximately 20% of the 44.1, 16 bit PCM data rate associated with CD. ATRAC uses various psycho-acoustical phenomena such as masking to remove audio data that is considered to be undetectable by the human ear. The first versions of the ATRAC algorithm were not too effective, but version 4.5 has reached a stage of maturity whereby most find it is extremely difficult or near impossible to tell a difference between the audio quality of the compressed and the uncompressed signals. One should not confuse ATRAC 4.5 with the more recent ATRAC3. ATRAC3 uses 10:1 (MDLP2) or 20:1 (MDLP4) compression as compared to the ATRAC 4.5, which uses 5:1 compression and is much higher quality. ATRAC 3 relates more closely to MP3 quality.

[xatax]

Oh, then I recommend you the TASCAM. It sounds is pretty close to PCM and the discs are broadly available and cheap.

ATRAC 4.5 and ATRAC Type-R sound better than ATRAC3 in any flavor, but not better than ATRAC3 PLUS at high bitrates (HI-SP and up) or PCM.

Edited March 9, 2006 by xatax

[denormaliser]

Oh, then I recommend you the TASCAM. It's quality is pretty close to PCM and the discs are broadly available and cheap.

Thanks so much for your advice. Its greatly appreciated.

Just one final question.

What are the main differences between the Tascam MD-301MkII and something like the Sony MDS-E10 or MDS-E12:

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Tascam_MD-301.html

VS.

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MDS-E10.html

The sony has MDLP... what is that exactly? long play? so it fits more on a disk right? Isnt that just another compression mode or something?

A 1U rack instead of 2U would be good, but i can live with 2U.

Oh and about the Tascam not having a volume knob... In the images the main knob that you would normally think to be output volume, actually reads "Input". Im just wondering how you adjust the playback volume?

http://www.tascamcontractor.com/ftp_resour...kII_images.html

[A440]

If you care about fidelity then forget about MDLP--it's compressed to half (LP2) or 1/4 (LP4) the bitrate of SP. The Tascam just won't be able to play back MD's that many other people have recorded in those formats.

But if you want CD quality you are going to have to get Hi-MD. PCM is CD quality--.wav files. SP is 292kbps. That's like a very high-quality mp3 (and longtime MD fans say it's better than equal bitrate mp3) but there is no way around the fact that it's compressed.

[denormaliser]

cool. thanks so much.

for the amount of money i want to pay i think i'll need to make a decision between something like the Tascam MD-301 MkII and a Professional CD player. My only concern with the CD player is if it skips.

Are there any issues with MD playback like potential for skipping or glitches to occur?

[A440]

Every MD I've owned, back to the MZ-R700, has been skip-free. You have to shake it and hit it like a tambourine to get a skip.

There were some glitches in the first (black) Hi-MD 1GB discs themselves. But the new blue ones seem reliable now. And you asked earlier about regular MD availability--don't worry, there are plenty, because they are also compatible with Hi-MD.

By the way, you're not using ATRAC 4.5 (which doesn't exist) but ATRAC 2 version 4.5 Type R. Minidisc is now up to ATRAC 3plus Type S. Most of the improvements are at lower (more compressed) bitrates--SP is still the best sound short of PCM.

[xatax]

[...]

Oh and about the Tascam not having a volume knob... In the images the main knob that you would normally think to be output volume, actually reads "Input". Im just wondering how you adjust the playback volume?

http://www.tascamcontractor.com/ftp_resour...kII_images.html

No wonder why it doesn't have a volume knob. Professional decks are connected usually to a mixer which controls the line in level of your sources (here: the MD rack) to your whole system. So, the line out level of the machine is fixed. Some decks usually come only with an attenuator level to avoid clipping. I suppose you are using a mixer right?

[denormaliser]

a mixer doesnt usually control line in level. some channels will have input gain, but that is not the same thing. I guess the Tascam is presuming that the material being played is recorded at the right level, but sometimes you want the signal you are sending from the machine to be hotter. It shouldnt be a problem. I just think its a bit weird. These things were made for broadcast mostly so it makes sense in that context i guess.

[denormaliser]

Hey can you guys help me identify what version of ATRAC this little guy uses:

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MDS-E52.html

(ie is it ATRAC 2 revision 4.5 type R like the Tascam?)

[xatax]

I have never seen a deck with volume knob. Maybe for the "phones out" but that's it.

Not sure about what version of ATRAC it would be... possibly 4.0? Surely it isn't ATRAC Type-R... it should sound fine though since it isn't one of the first ones.

Edited March 11, 2006 by xatax

[denormaliser]

so.... do you reckon that the tascam would be a better purchase than the sony?

i have a strange feeling that the tascam will be more reliable.

one bonus of the tascam is that the program play stays in the memory even when the deck is turned off.